BlueTruthPilots

[Ski-N-Fly]

Discount Airline Pilot Guy


"Recently, Pilots have been telling me that our cost advantage relative to our competition is widening. I am not sure where this information originated but unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, over the last 5 years alone our once massive cost advantage which was 20% has quickly shrunk to 13." (source: VP Ops email to Pilots, Aug 2, 2013)


While we are fully expecting to be underwhelmed by the conclusions of the PAR Team, we thought we'd help provide a little guidance for the VP Ops.

As of 3Q 2012 DOT statistics, Jet Blue CASM advantage had extended to 28.74% vs. Peer Average airlines.

Also, the MIT Airline Data Project has produced an excruciatingly thorough and comparative analysis of airline productivity, revenue, traffic count and total cockpit cost advantage/disadvantage, since 1995.

According to the smart folks at MIT, the VP Ops Ford & Harrison talking points statements simply don't hold water. Let's compare Jet Blue Pilot costs vs. some peer set pilot costs, accounting for total compensation, averaged from 2010-2012:

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 28% discount compared to American.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 32% discount compared to Delta.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 21% discount compared to United.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 17% discount compared to Southwest.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 19% discount compared to Alaska.

Since our total CASM and Pilot Cost advantage is already huge, and if our peer set will be getting on average raises of 16% in 2014, why does the PAR team insist upon outsourcing codesharing massive amounts of OUR flying in trade for a sub-par pay increase??

Why also did the ELT feel the need to STRIP our "unsustainable" health care away while the company enjoys such a large cost gap vs. our Peer Airline set?


Numbers don't lie...


If you are looking for places to cut costs, we suggest you try another department..

Take Management, for example:

- Jet Blue managers work for a 15% premium compared to American.

- Jet Blue managers work for a 30% premium compared to Delta.

- Jet Blue managers work for a 10% premium compared to Southwest.


But Wait, There's More..

See this:

- Our manager to pilot ratio is equal to that of American.

- Our manager to pilot ratio is 30% greater than United.

- Our manager to pilot ratio is 30% greater than Southwest.


Don't even THINK about using Jet Blue Pilots as scapegoats in a discussion about airline costs.


Be Informed: Read the PVC updates and warnings about the upcoming PAR Team results. Check out:

www.bluetruthpilots.com

Get Involved: Support PVC candidates in the current election who will speak up and represent PILOT interests.

Stay Engaged: If we haven't spoken to you yet, please send your contact information to us at:

[email protected]

Sign and send in an interest card!

If you don't have a card, contact us or download and print one from:

www.bluetruthpilots.com/128.html



Information is presented with every effort to be accurate and factual. BlueTruth opinions are editorial in nature and not intended to injure or defame in any manner. Readers are encouraged to do their own research and draw their own conclusions.

http://bluetruthpilots.com

 

[StarChecker]

Stop it....you are scaring me.

 

[BeachBummer]

Dave smiles at me in the hallway... He's looking out for me and my best interest. I know cause sandy said so. My chief pilot told me so too, I don't know why he's holding onto that seniority number at us air...

 

[B6Busdriver]

We have a moat and a 26 page PEA vs those verbous 500 page contracts.

 

[pilotyip]

Discount Airline Pilot Guy


- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 28% discount compared to American.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 32% discount compared to Delta.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 21% discount compared to United.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 17% discount compared to Southwest.

- Jet Blue Pilots work for a 19% discount compared to Alaska.

http://bluetruthpilots.com

How come Spirit, USAirways, Virgin America, and Allegient are not listed here?

 

[B6Busdriver]

How come Spirit, USAirways, Virgin America, and Allegient are not listed here?

They are not in our peer set as outlined and agreed with by mgmt.

 

[Flyer1015]

They are not in our peer set as outlined and agreed with by mgmt.

Spirit/Virgin/Allegiant/Frontier aren't in the peer set, but 700+ airplane legacies are? How big is Jetblue again?

Once your union vote passes and you eventually end up at the NMB for meetings, you can bet they will look at all A320 operators and not just legacy airlines.

 

[Blue Dude]

Fine. In which case we'll weight airlines by the number of narrow-body pilots who are affected by those rates. By all means mix in VA, Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant. I'm pretty sure we have more pilots than all of those combined, much less any of the airlines in our peer set. Either we're a "destination carrier" or we're not. If we are, then we ought to be compensated as such, period. This means either disregarding airlines that aren't considered destinations - compared with JetBlue - or giving them appropriate weight. Either way is fine, but they can't have it both ways.

 

[Flyer1015]

Don't get me wrong, I still agree with you Blue Dude.

 

[pilotyip]

They are not in our peer set as outlined and agreed with by mgmt.

Interesting, then why is it posted in the LLC/Nationals forum?

 

[B6Busdriver]

Interesting, then why is it posted in the LLC/Nationals forum?

Really? That is dumb, even for you. What does a company peer set have to do with an anonymous message board?

 

[pilotyip]

Really? That is dumb, even for you. What does a company peer set have to do with an anonymous message board?

Just if the peer group is the majors, it should be in the majors forum, is that dumb? even for you?

 

[B6Busdriver]

Just if the peer group is the majors, it should be in the majors forum, is that dumb? even for you?

We are talking about a peer set established by a corporation, not an anonymous message board dummy.

 

[pilotyip]

We are talking about a peer set established by a corporation, not an anonymous message board dummy.

Ok I accept that, which means your management thinks you are a major, so this should be in the major forum.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Ok I accept that, which means your management thinks you are a major, so this should be in the major forum.

You are wrong again. Being a major airline has nothing to do with what management, any pilot, or this Internet board want. I am sure you know what makes JB a "major airline" since you are such a smart guy. The same definition makes RAH and Skywest a major airline as well. I think you and general lee get a bit to close at night. Why else do you two get involved with every section and every thread of this forum even though you don't even work in the same section of the industry let alone the company threads pertain to. Go get another hobby other than flight info.

 

[Vingus]

Ok I accept that, which means your management thinks you are a major, so this should be in the major forum.

PilotYip,

You just don't get it and you never will. I get that your timing was crap. I'm sorry about that. I get that you are flying/management at some second rate cargo outfit. I understand your perspective from where YOU are sitting and will probably remain.

You see, even though we are all pilots, it's like you are the nurse and major airline pilots are the doctors. I'm not trying to diminish your experience, but draw an analogy here. You always say that we are arrogant or prima-donnas with a sense of etitlement. That is the same as the nurse being jealous of the doctor.

Here is the difference between me and you. I got hired by a major and now expect to be compensated at that level. You did not. Your perspective is not the same as mine. Another analogy is a minor league player being upset because of the pay that major league guys are getting. If you are ok with where you are at, then great. But don't be upset with us because we are trying to make / maintain this profession into something that will compensate us well. We may not have all earned it, but we are at this level nonetheless.

 

[pilotyip]

PilotYip,

You just don't get it and you never will. I get that your timing was crap. I'm sorry about that. I get that you are flying/management at some second rate cargo outfit. I understand your perspective from where YOU are sitting and will probably remain.

You see, even though we are all pilots, it's like you are the nurse and major airline pilots are the doctors. I'm not trying to diminish your experience, but draw an analogy here. You always say that we are arrogant or prima-donnas with a sense of etitlement. That is the same as the nurse being jealous of the doctor.


Here is the difference between me and you. I got hired by a major and now expect to be compensated at that level. You did not. Your perspective is not the same as mine. Another analogy is a minor league player being upset because of the pay that major league guys are getting. If you are ok with where you are at, then great. But don't be upset with us because we are trying to make / maintain this profession into something that will compensate us well. We may not have all earned it, but we are at this level nonetheless.

Thank you doctor, a free consultation on the internet, how much better can it get. I am humbled to be in your presence, I guess I am more like a janitor than a nurse I am so far down the food chain. But I think I get get it; I am happy although I never made it to the "show", and a lot of you appear to be unhappy. Life is too short to spend any time being unhappy, and I am having a ball right now.

You are wrong again. Being a major airline has nothing to do with what management, any pilot, or this Internet board want. I am sure you know what makes JB a "major airline" since you are such a smart guy. The same definition makes RAH and Skywest a major airline as well. I think you and general lee get a bit to close at night. Why else do you two get involved with every section and every thread of this forum even though you don't even work in the same section of the industry let alone the company threads pertain to. Go get another hobby other than flight info.

You guys post this pro-union stuff on a public site and then if you don't post rah rah unions are 100% great and all management is 100% evil, you are attacked as being stupid, low life, looser, etc. Again public forum, expect public comment. I think I could post the sky is blue here; and get some condescending comments. This started out as a question about why this wasn't on a major forum and went downhill from there .

BTW: Guys the ignore function works just fine and you don't need a college degree to use it.

 

[Nindiri]

I could be wrong, Yip, but I'm beginning to suspect that you may be just slightly anti-union.

 

[pilotyip]

I could be wrong, Yip, but I'm beginning to suspect that you may be just slightly anti-union.

Old post but fits

This board is very pro-union. I don't think that I am that rabidly anti-union, but more middle of the road, some places need a union. The rabid union supporters stand on a platform that unions can do no harm. I just happen to not agree with that stance and it is my duty to point out the other side. Unions have the ability to destroy marginal companies.

But immersed in this population, I stand out because I am not 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management. A lot of this comes from my personal experiences as a member of ALPA and IBT. This board remains me of my former pro-union activists at places I worked. Nothing was ever good enough for them. After about my fourth job, my main concern was the viability of my company and anything I could do make them more viable was my primary goal. The standard union activists battle cry of "more pay and more says off" until of course you have all your days off, without pay.

There are two sides to every story, both sides need to be told.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Old post but fits

This board is very pro-union. I don't think that I am that rabidly anti-union, but more middle of the road, some places need a union. The rabid union supporters stand on a platform that unions can do no harm. I just happen to not agree with that stance and it is my duty to point out the other side. Unions have the ability to destroy marginal companies.

But immersed in this population, I stand out because I am not 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management. A lot of this comes from my personal experiences as a member of ALPA and IBT. This board remains me of my former pro-union activists at places I worked. Nothing was ever good enough for them. After about my fourth job, my main concern was the viability of my company and anything I could do make them more viable was my primary goal. The standard union activists battle cry of "more pay and more says off" until of course you have all your days off, without pay.

There are two sides to every story, both sides need to be told.

This is where we disagree. My pro-union stance is about the viability of my income to provide for my family. See I think about them first and foremost over the viability of a company I am working for. You may think they are one in the same, but as you should know that is not often the case in this industry post 911. Your priority's are screwed up.

 

[Nindiri]

I like you, Yip. You seem to enjoy aviation for its own sake instead of it being simply a means to an end, a quality sadly lacking with a lot of the people on this board. And some of your opinions are interesting, even when they're wrong, like your long-time argument that a 4-year degree is a waste of valuable flying time.

But you amuse me sometimes. I mean, seriously, it's your "duty" to point out the other side? Did you have to swear allegiance or something?

 

[pilotyip]

I like you, Yip. You seem to enjoy aviation for its own sake instead of it being simply a means to an end, a quality sadly lacking with a lot of the people on this board. And some of your opinions are interesting, even when they're wrong, like your long-time argument that a 4-year degree is a waste of valuable flying time.

But you amuse me sometimes. I mean, seriously, it's your "duty" to point out the other side? Did you have to swear allegiance or something?

I also find an amusement element in posting here also, it has been a fantastic adventure and I don't know how much I would change.

 

[Vingus]

Yip,


I have an extensive military flying/non-flying background. I'm currently still serving in a non-flying billet in the reserves and am actually deployed as I type. My life has been an "adventure" as well.

My point with my attacks against you has been this. Being a major airline pilot is one of the last good paying jobs out there. Sure, there is medicine, law and business as well. But as far as a skilled profession, being an airline pilot can still make one quite comfortable. Constantly saying that one should be doing this job just because you love it and stating that you don't need a college degree to do such a rote task such as flying airplanes just furthers the argument to lower our pay.

If enough people keep talking like you do about doctors, the same result might happen to them. So what if they went to med school, many pilots had years of flight training (at least the good ones did). All they do is look in your mouth and have them say "ahh". Anyone can do it!

I'm glad you like your job. I like flying too. But I do it for more than the fun of flying and I expect to be paid to the level of my responsibility and training. Like I have said to you on another thread, maybe I just had good timing or luck but I'm glad I have finally gotten to the level where I currently am. I started my "adventure" back in 1990 and have finally gotten to a point where I can provide for my family to a comfortable level.

Maybe I should just move into a condo, have my kids take on huge student debt, not fund a comfortable retirement and just enjoy working for a discount.

Remember, it's not what you deserve (although I do feel that I deserve to make what I do), it's what you negotiate!!!! If you have no leverage at your current position in life, then you better get comfortable where you are.

It seems that you have, just stop busting our balls for trying to maintain this profession into one worth having.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip,
I have an extensive military flying/non-flying background. I'm currently still serving in a non-flying billet in the reserves and am actually deployed as I type. My life has been an "adventure" as well.

It seems that you have, just stop busting our balls for trying to maintain this profession into one worth having.

Glad to see you are putting that 14 years of active duty into your retirement points system. I did 26 years combined active and reserve, it is going to make my retirement much nicer and secure. I think I understand your frustration with this career, having experienced much of it myself. But after many failed airlines my focus has become "don't rock the boat" the job might disappear. So I post my concerns, and it appears I am busting balls. Please do not take me too seriously.

BTW How much to the two pilots from our outfit who when to SWA without degrees lower the bar on pay?

 

[BeachBummer]

I like you, Yip. You seem to enjoy aviation for its own sake instead of it being simply a means to an end, a quality sadly lacking with a lot of the people on this board. And some of your opinions are interesting, even when they're wrong, like your long-time argument that a 4-year degree is a waste of valuable flying time.

But you amuse me sometimes. I mean, seriously, it's your "duty" to point out the other side? Did you have to swear allegiance or something?

There is a difference in having blind love for aviation and having a career that pays the mortgage. If you own a plane and fly for fun, just love aviation. If you fly for a living, it's about money and quality of life. Big difference.

 

[pilotyip]

There is a difference in having blind love for aviation and having a career that pays the mortgage. If you own a plane and fly for fun, just love aviation. If you fly for a living, it's about money and quality of life. Big difference.

Could not agree more, you need a certain level of money to pay the mortgage, that has never been a problem in my career. There has always been another job out there. QOL, that is for the individual to determine. What I consider a satisfactory QOL, may not fit another's definition. I always move to my base, commuting really eats up your time. My QOL has been good, mainly because I am doing what I like.

It is my job as an employee is about what I can give and not upon what I can take. If I don't like a job and feel I am not being treated failry, I find another job.

I am coming into retirement in good financal shape. This career has been an adventure with many unplanned turns over which I have had no control. So the best to you and at age 70 when you look back you will be satisfied wit hwhat you have done.

 

[Cheeta]

Okay so here's what's going on at JetBlue and the card drive that is backed and surreptitiously ran by blue truth pilots. They have well over 60% cards in hand. They are waiting on two things to file 1 Alpa and 2 an annual pay review that will increase JetBlue pilots paid 14%, Which the company is holding hostage as leverage to settle 3A later this year or early in the new year. DB Has set up a draconian regional airline management style at JetBlue. This management style has basically guted the culture that 80% of the pilots were hired into. While Neeleman was never really pro pilot he was pro employee and set up a culture at JetBlue that treated everyone well and gave you multiple avenues to achieve quality-of-life at pretty good pay. DB has striped JetBlue of that entire program and has Now set up a management team and style that disseminates propaganda that insults pilots intelligence because this propaganda flies in the face of realities that both the pilot group and their families live with every day.

The JetBlue pilot group will be union with in a year of today's date without question.

 

[BeachBummer]

I find it amazing that you know the % of cards on hand and even more amazing that your sharing it on e Internet... Amazing.

 

[Cheeta]

I find it amazing that you know the % of cards on hand and even more amazing that your sharing it on e Internet... Amazing.

Do you believe for one minute that the management at JetBlue doesn't know plus or minus a few percent how many cards have been attained? if you do you're a fool. The whole secret and surreptitious car drive is actually hurting the pilot group one many people are uninformed of this card drive and two the company is using it as a tool against all the pilots.

 

[BeachBummer]

Whatever...