Monitoring cockpit systems not easy for pilots

[Traderd]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23679275/monitoring-cockpit-systems-not-easy-pilots


"Airline pilots often have trouble consistently monitoring automated cockpit safety systems, a problem that has shown up repeatedly in accidents and may have been a factor in the recent crash landing of a South Korean airliner in San Francisco, industry and government experts said Wednesday.

The human brain isn't wired to continually pay attention to instruments that rarely fail or show discrepancies, a panel of experts told an annual safety conference of the Air Line Pilots Association, the world's largest pilots union. As a result, teaching pilots how to effectively monitor instruments is now as important as teaching them basic "stick-and-rudder" flying skills, they said."

 

[SIG600]

Its hard, pay me more.

 

[jetstream]

Many pilots are losing their stick-and-rudder skills because all we do is monitor instruments instead of actually flying.

 

[STL717]

What is a stick?

 

[727gm]

Many pilots are losing their stick-and-rudder skills because all we do is monitor instruments instead of actually flying.

And because either corporate policies or lazy-pilots-who-don't-like-flying actively discourage handflying and proficiency.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23679275/monitoring-cockpit-systems-not-easy-pilots


"Airline pilots often have trouble consistently monitoring automated cockpit safety systems, a problem that has shown up repeatedly in accidents and may have been a factor in the recent crash landing of a South Korean airliner in San Francisco, industry and government experts said Wednesday.

The human brain isn't wired to continually pay attention to instruments that rarely fail or show discrepancies, a panel of experts told an annual safety conference of the Air Line Pilots Association, the world's largest pilots union. As a result, teaching pilots how to effectively monitor instruments is now as important as teaching them basic "stick-and-rudder" flying skills, they said."

It isn't that it is difficult, but that we aren't built to monitor like that. It's the same reason that crossing restrictions are a problem for aircraft/pilots that don't have VNAV. Instead, we build our modern aircraft to accommodate our inherent weaknesses, and have alerters, etc. This isn't really news to anyone who is a professional pilot. Or shouldn't be.

 

[waveflyer]

Bullsh/t.
SWA just got vnav. I had plenty of jobs that didn't- all the way down the line-

I said this from the beginning- our companies don't like this accident bc it highlights that pilots with flying skill are needed, when they want to move to single pilot ops to no pilot ops. They certainly want to believe we are overpaid for what we do.

 

[waveflyer]

Many pilots are losing their stick-and-rudder skills because all we do is monitor instruments instead of actually flying.

This^^

 

[waveflyer]

And because either corporate policies or lazy-pilots-who-don't-like-flying actively discourage handflying and proficiency.

Definitely this-

 

[SENECAII]

Too busy playing sudokho.

 

[jonjuan]

Bullsh/t.
SWA just got vnav. I had plenty of jobs that didn't- all the way down the line-

I said this from the beginning- our companies don't like this accident bc it highlights that pilots with flying skill are needed, when they want to move to single pilot ops to no pilot ops. They certainly want to believe we are overpaid for what we do.

What was the accident rate attributed to pilot error in the 60s-90s versus today?

 

[Flash]

Bullsh/t.
SWA just got vnav. I had plenty of jobs that didn't- all the way down the line-

I said this from the beginning- our companies don't like this accident bc it highlights that pilots with flying skill are needed, when they want to move to single pilot ops to no pilot ops. They certainly want to believe we are overpaid for what we do.

Playing the company devils advocate here, if this crew knew how to manage the automation, this accident would not have happened and therefore these arguments are baseless? Maybe the company would feel that crews need more training in automation management rather than that old school stick and rudder flying, after all these systems don't fail, or the failure rate is so minimal that these skills aren't needed anymore (except when they're needed)

 

[waveflyer]

What was the accident rate attributed to pilot error in the 60s-90s versus today?

Are you arguing for no pilots? No pilot skill?

SWA had no fatalities in 35 years until one snowy night in Chicago, where the transition to a simple auto-brake system played a contributing factor.

I'd say we have the benefit of automation, but also the benefit of learning from those accidents. And in many of those accidents in the 80's&90's automation and automation dependency killed a whole lot of people in that catch-all "pilot error" category. I see no excuse for companies to encourage automation "dependence" and pilots to allow for the erosion of their own physical and mental skills.

It's an attitude. Are you always mentally flying the aircraft, managing it- and automation helps and reduces fatigue? Or has it become necessary for you?

If you can't click EVERYTHING off, and fly the airplane as well as the autopilot, I believe you're being professionally lazy, and ultimately arguing against our value.

Asiana and the whole of Korea's accident history highlights the slippery slope of this

 

[waveflyer]

Playing the company devils advocate here, if this crew knew how to manage the automation, this accident would not have happened and therefore these arguments are baseless? Maybe the company would feel that crews need more training in automation management rather than that old school stick and rudder flying, after all these systems don't fail, or the failure rate is so minimal that these skills aren't needed anymore (except when they're needed)

I can't imagine how one could argue that in light of where the pilots got that airplane still attempting to push buttons?

 

[SIG600]

It's all about the man/woman in the seat. Everything else is noise.

 

[scoreboardII]

Fly as good as the autopilot? You mean bust through level off by 100 feet then take its time to correct? Yeah, I think we could fly better than an autopilot. Now, better for 10 hours? No.

 

[Flash]

I can't imagine how one could argue that in light of where the pilots got that airplane still attempting to push buttons?

But they mis managed the button pushing right? If they had been expert button pushers then the accident would not have happened? So in the company's mindset they need better button pushers to fly the airplane, crappy button pushers didn't work so well.

 

[dicko]

Fly as good as the autopilot? You mean bust through level off by 100 feet then take its time to correct? Yeah, I think we could fly better than an autopilot. Now, better for 10 hours? No.

Please. Its 140 feet and it gives you a message when it's far too late. What more could we ask

Now, lets get back to Wave, talking about Wave; his wealth, the eons it took to achieve a SWA job, cooking tips, Ab workouts and his stick and rudder skills.

 

[waveflyer]

Haha-
Haters gonna hate dicko

The workouts have been falling off and I'm as guilty as the next pilot of slacking with automation- not preaching- but that crash was ridiculous and it sure seems like the FAA wants us to be more like that

(But seriously, don't miss that quinoa and kale salad in PHX- so good)

 

[waveflyer]

But they mis managed the button pushing right? If they had been expert button pushers then the accident would not have happened? So in the company's mindset they need better button pushers to fly the airplane, crappy button pushers didn't work so well.

Cruise control in a parking lot- maybe, just maybe a professional pilot ought to be masters at both- and have enough judgement instilled to know when to use which

You think?

 

[Scoot 11]

Bullsh/t.
SWA just got vnav. I had plenty of jobs that didn't- all the way down the line-

I said this from the beginning- our companies don't like this accident bc it highlights that pilots with flying skill are needed, when they want to move to single pilot ops to no pilot ops. They certainly want to believe we are overpaid for what we do.

Always leading the pack in everything. Pay, benefits, even vnav. Welcome to 1980. Too bad your pay and pay for training mentality never caught up. Keep telling the world you're the smartest guy in the room, at least your man love believes it.

 

[waveflyer]

Nope- not me scooter-

I'm a smart guy- but one of thousands of pilots that fit that bill and that's all I care to be

But why call me out? Are you one of the weak-dicks that can't fly anymore too??

 

[OldManPilot]

Flying is a skill. Any skill that is not practice will degrade over time. No company should try to persuade a pilot not to practice this skill, just as much as no pilot should allow himself/herself to not take the time or energy to click off the automation and had fly once in a while to keep those skill sets at top notch.

 

[HowardBorden]

But they mis managed the button pushing right? If they had been expert button pushers then the accident would not have happened? So in the company's mindset they need better button pushers to fly the airplane, crappy button pushers didn't work so well.

The ONLY buttons one should be pushing when they find the aircraft in an undesirable and deteriorating state is the autopilot and autothrottle disconnect buttons! It's that simple.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The ONLY buttons one should be pushing when they find the aircraft in an undesirable and deteriorating state is the autopilot and autothrottle disconnect buttons! It's that simple.

Meh. Depends. TOGA works fine in most circumstances. Unless you've allowed it to REALLY deteriorate. If you get to a situation where you must turn the autopilot off (not want to, but must), that's a sign you've let things go way too far.

 

[HowardBorden]

Meh. Depends. TOGA works fine in most circumstances. Unless you've allowed it to REALLY deteriorate. If you get to a situation where you must turn the autopilot off (not want to, but must), that's a sign you've let things go way too far.

TOGA is an autopilot disconnect button in every transport category airplane I've ever flown.

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

TOGA is an autopilot disconnect button in every transport category airplane I've ever flown.

Guess you never flew the airbus.

 

[727gm]

Guess you never flew the airbus.

He was talking about REAL transport category airplanes.

 

[HowardBorden]

Guess you never flew the airbus.

Correct, I have not.

 

[dicko]

TOGA is an autopilot disconnect button in every transport category airplane I've ever flown.

That must be an impressive list of transport category airplanes Howard.

The 747, 787, 777, 767, 757 and 737 are all capable of TOGA whilst coupled to the autopilot. In other words, when you press TOGA the autopilot stays on. I know, I know; It doesn't stay on when you you press TOGA in a Southwest 737.