Alaska contract

[Dan Roman]

CAL was 5 years pre-merger. Spirit is 2. Virgin is 2. Delta is 13. SWA is 10.

Didn't realize CAL had been so quick. HA has widebody Captains in just under 5 years. Good point about the upstart airlines, they actually have pilots that made Captain in 1 day, if you count their first classes.

 

[flythere]

Did anybody else notice they quietly added a new route out of SEA today?? SEA-HDN, will be served by SkyWest!! The hits just keep on a commin' man!!!

 

[bri5150]

I would put Virgin optomistically at 5 now. Total guess with no data. It would be a miracle at 2 years now.

 

[fam62c]

SWA upgrade is about 20 years for those at the bottom, 12 years to get 50% up the FO list for those at the bottom. SWA is about the slowest moving list in the industry with no plans for fleet growth as of now. It looks like the Big-3 legacy carriers will be the best place to be once hiring gets in gear a couple years from now, they represent the best combination of compensation and career progression. We have to hope the ball gets rolling and keeps rolling.

 

[ROSWELL41]

Spirit's upgrade will be more like 2.5 years for those hired in 2011. Pretty decent for an airline that has been around for over 20 years.

 

[Dan Roman]

SWA upgrade is about 20 years for those at the bottom, 12 years to get 50% up the FO list for those at the bottom. SWA is about the slowest moving list in the industry with no plans for fleet growth as of now. It looks like the Big-3 legacy carriers will be the best place to be once hiring gets in gear a couple years from now, they represent the best combination of compensation and career progression. We have to hope the ball gets rolling and keeps rolling.

Couldn't agree more about the big 3 legacies, my guess AA in particular is going to lose the most and therefore hire the most. I would think anyone who gets on with any of those carriers will fly up the list. Pretty much has to after the huge gap since they hired last translates into a very old seniority list.
Hawaiian has laid out that they will go from a list of about 650 to a little over 1000 by 2020. Not sure how many retirements we have, but one thing that will keep anyone from getting too stagnant is they hire all ages, up to pilots being hired in their fifties. So their won't be a big block of all young pilots when the expansion slows. But we sure won't be hiring at the rate the big 3 will.

 

[jonjuan]

Couldn't agree more about the big 3 legacies, my guess AA in particular is going to lose the most and therefore hire the most. I would think anyone who gets on with any of those carriers will fly up the list. Pretty much has to after the huge gap since they hired last translates into a very old seniority list.
Hawaiian has laid out that they will go from a list of about 650 to a little over 1000 by 2020. Not sure how many retirements we have, but one thing that will keep anyone from getting too stagnant is they hire all ages, up to pilots being hired in their fifties. So their won't be a big block of all young pilots when the expansion slows. But we sure won't be hiring at the rate the big 3 will.

Remember in consolidation, 1+1 doesn't = 2. Delta nwa combined at what, 14,000 and now are below 11k?

 

[Old School 737]

Love how the MEC sends out email saying now that contract is settled "and we settled for no increase in 401k " ? it's a good time to up you personal contributions ... These guys I tell ya.. I'm saving the flyer they sent to us At home ... Gonna did it out in a few years and show it to everybody as a De ident doc ..and see how many people think it was put out by the company ... If you didn't know alpa wrote it you'd swear it was from the company ...

 

[Ocity]

Love how the MEC sends out email saying now that contract is settled "and we settled for no increase in 401k " ? it's a good time to up you personal contributions ... These guys I tell ya.. I'm saving the flyer they sent to us At home ... Gonna did it out in a few years and show it to everybody as a De ident doc ..and see how many people think it was put out by the company ... If you didn't know alpa wrote it you'd swear it was from the company ...

HA!! Just saw the email. It should really read, "now that we fked you over...with your permission btw, and given our stunning failure to provide you any additional retirement benefits, you really need to pick up extra flying to bump your 401k savings"

F'king idiots. The day ALPA implodes I'm popping the champagne.

 

[Jim]

F'king idiots. The day ALPA implodes I'm popping the champagne.

Once again blaming others for the way your pilot group negotiated and voted.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Once again blaming others for the way your pilot group negotiated and voted.

The MEC recommended it, and the group followed.

 

[Boxboy]

Once again blaming others for the way your pilot group negotiated and voted.

Blaming only 67% of the voters. As for our negotiating committee, I don't fault them too much. They were out gunned and out witted, as always. Too bad we can't learn from past experiences. Oh well, life goes on.

 

[fam62c]

Blaming only 67% of the voters. As for our negotiating committee, I don't fault them too much. They were out gunned and out witted, as always. Too bad we can't learn from past experiences. Oh well, life goes on.

So what would you have done differently if you had been in charge that would have guaranteed the company would have given you more? If the group had voted no what do you think would have happened next given the realities of modern NMB operating philosophy?

 

[Boxboy]

So what would you have done differently if you had been in charge that would have guaranteed the company would have given you more? If the group had voted no what do you think would have happened next given the realities of modern NMB operating philosophy?

The NC felt that they've achieved all they could so they put out a TA. The MEC unanimously approved it 6-0, WTF! Should have been neutral at best. 1/3 of us voted NO. Would we have gone to the NMB? It's anybody's guess. I tend to think not.
What would I have done differently, you ask? I can't say since I wasn't there and we'll never know. I do know this. Whatever we (ALPA) are doing, it's not working for this pilot group. It hasn't worked since I've been here. In the history of this pilot group, we finally had the leverage to turn things around for the better and we blew it; rolled over again! I didn't know ALPA had a "Spin Doctorate" Ph. D.

 

[AKMD80GUY]

The pilots here don't feel that they deserve better. They still feel that little old Alaska Airlines can't compete with the big boys and we need to accept that. Until that frame of mind leaves this group we will never be compensated what we truly deserve.

Remember when you do 6 legs through SE that this company believes that there are 5 other pilot groups that can do it better. Remember when you land in LIH at night in a driving rain storm that they believe there are 5 other pilot groups that can do it better. Remember when you land on 27R in ORD in a blizzard on a slick runway that they believe there are 5 groups that can do it better.

I use that because at the end of this we will again be in 6th place, where we have always been. The only difference is we went through Kasher to have the ability to negotiate like real airline pilots and not have arbitration hanging over our head. We took a $40k per year pay cut, for this? Aside from the 900 arbitration this has been one s@$* sandwich after another. The pilots who voted yes were either scared into it or looked at Sec. 3 only. This I can guarantee!

 

[Jim]

... Whatever we (Alaska Airlines ALPA unit as voted in by the Alaska Airlines pilot group) are doing, it's not working for this pilot group...

FIFY - it's your Alaska Airlines ALPA unit and your pilot group controlling your destiny, not ALPA National.

 

[fam62c]

The NC felt that they've achieved all they could so they put out a TA. The MEC unanimously approved it 6-0, WTF! Should have been neutral at best. 1/3 of us voted NO. Would we have gone to the NMB? It's anybody's guess. I tend to think not.
What would I have done differently, you ask? I can't say since I wasn't there and we'll never know. I do know this. Whatever we (ALPA) are doing, it's not working for this pilot group. It hasn't worked since I've been here. In the history of this pilot group, we finally had the leverage to turn things around for the better and we blew it; rolled over again! I didn't know ALPA had a "Spin Doctorate" Ph. D.

What leverage did you "finally have" that would have gotten the company to put more into a deal?

 

[fam62c]

The pilots here don't feel that they deserve better. They still feel that little old Alaska Airlines can't compete with the big boys and we need to accept that. Until that frame of mind leaves this group we will never be compensated what we truly deserve.

Remember when you do 6 legs through SE that this company believes that there are 5 other pilot groups that can do it better. Remember when you land in LIH at night in a driving rain storm that they believe there are 5 other pilot groups that can do it better. Remember when you land on 27R in ORD in a blizzard on a slick runway that they believe there are 5 groups that can do it better.

I use that because at the end of this we will again be in 6th place, where we have always been. The only difference is we went through Kasher to have the ability to negotiate like real airline pilots and not have arbitration hanging over our head. We took a $40k per year pay cut, for this? Aside from the 900 arbitration this has been one s@$* sandwich after another. The pilots who voted yes were either scared into it or looked at Sec. 3 only. This I can guarantee!

So what do you think would have happened if the group turned down the TA? Do you think the company would have just automatically given you more? Did the company need to get a deal with you in a timely manner for some reason? I just want to understand the plan that the no voters had if the TA was rejected, what was the new strategy that would have resulted in better gains?

 

[Old School 737]

I doubt they would have announced the .20 cents a share stock Dividend had we voted it down .. That prob would have been poor taste .. But what do I know .. Our FA have bigger balls than we do .. They actually filed a grievence over the Skywest flying years ago .. Us .. Well we just rolled over and were like ok it's only 5 planes .. Oh wait 8 now ...

 

[AKMD80GUY]

So what do you think would have happened if the group turned down the TA? Do you think the company would have just automatically given you more? Did the company need to get a deal with you in a timely manner for some reason? I just want to understand the plan that the no voters had if the TA was rejected, what was the new strategy that would have resulted in better gains?

There is no reason to negotiate with this pilot group for meaningful improvements because they know we will cave. Had this pilot group shown some resolve and unity then things may have gone different. They knew we would roll over and we did its that simple.

I don't blame the company one bit. They did exactly as I would expect them to do. When you negotiate with pansies this is what you get, chump change for pay and all the work rule improvements the company could ask for.

 

[Old School 737]

There is no reason to negotiate with this pilot group for meaningful improvements because they know we will cave. Had this pilot group shown some resolve and unity then things may have gone different. They knew we would roll over and we did its that simple.

I don't blame the company one bit. They did exactly as I would expect them to do. When you negotiate with pansies this is what you get, chump change for pay and all the work rule improvements the company could ask for.

So true...

 

[Boxboy]

So what do you think would have happened if the group turned down the TA? Do you think the company would have just automatically given you more? Did the company need to get a deal with you in a timely manner for some reason? I just want to understand the plan that the no voters had if the TA was rejected, what was the new strategy that would have resulted in better gains?

Do you even work for Alaska?

 

[fam62c]

Do you even work for Alaska?

No, but the question is still legitimate.

 

[flythere]

So what do you think would have happened if the group turned down the TA? Do you think the company would have just automatically given you more? Did the company need to get a deal with you in a timely manner for some reason? I just want to understand the plan that the no voters had if the TA was rejected, what was the new strategy that would have resulted in better gains?

Well, let's see:

1. polling would start within a week or so to figure out what went wrong

2. give it another 2 weeks to compile a list of the top 4 or 5 items that members voted against. (remember we had 4 cornerstones)

3. We then rank those 4 or 5 items and send the negotiators back to the table

granted the company and negotiating committee would have had their feelings hurt, they would have met sometime around Sept for some type of preliminary talks, maybe sooner considering how cozy they were during this process!!

The last thing management wanted was another labor group upset about pay or compensation!!

No worries now, it's a mute point for another 6 or 7 years!!!

 

[Old School 737]

Tru dat !!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Moot. Moot point. But great post.

 

[fam62c]

Well, let's see:

1. polling would start within a week or so to figure out what went wrong

2. give it another 2 weeks to compile a list of the top 4 or 5 items that members voted against. (remember we had 4 cornerstones)

3. We then rank those 4 or 5 items and send the negotiators back to the table

granted the company and negotiating committee would have had their feelings hurt, they would have met sometime around Sept for some type of preliminary talks, maybe sooner considering how cozy they were during this process!!

The last thing management wanted was another labor group upset about pay or compensation!!

No worries now, it's a mute point for another 6 or 7 years!!!

Well, that would have been one way to go no doubt and it might have resulted in some favorable tweaks and a better offer in a timely manner. It also might have resulted in no movement with a lengthy trip into years of NMB mediation with a deal far in the future only marginally better than what you have now. To take or not to take the bird in the hand is always a tough decision.

You are right though you will never know what the outcome would have been because the majority of your pilots wanted something they could take to the bank now. As far as the company worried about labor being upset, I don't work there and maybe Alaska is different but most airlines are looking at cost first. They know that the planes are going to get flown even if pilots are upset and they realize that some percentage of the pilots at every airline are always upset about something no matter what. They also know that they have a waiting line of pilots who want to live in the bases you have to offer who would be happy to work under your existing contract. It's much cheaper to have some upset pilots than to give you SWA or DAL compensation, that's the unfortunate reality of the situation.

 

[igneousy2]

So what do you think would have happened if the group turned down the TA? Do you think the company would have just automatically given you more? Did the company need to get a deal with you in a timely manner for some reason? I just want to understand the plan that the no voters had if the TA was rejected, what was the new strategy that would have resulted in better gains?

I'll give this a try...

1. We hire a big time PR firm to run a PR campaign with the message..."Alaska pilots are pissed and will do everything in their power to give fair compensation INCLUDING a strike!"

2. We hire a big time labor law firm to do two things...1. Make sure the PR firm stays in-bounds but gets us as close to the edge as possible...2. gives us people at the negotiating table that eat, sleep, and breathe negotiating.

So when our full page ads run in the Seattle times run giving the message that a strike is imminent, and KING-5 is running footage of 200 pilots and 200 flight attendants picketing at SEATAC airport (okay realistically, 20 pilots and 300 flight attendants)...then we sit at the table and see what we can get. Right now, we got what we got by begging, we chose not to swing the one itsy-bitsy hammer we have.

 

[PCL_128]

Sounds like a great way to get the NMB to not take you seriously, park negotiations, and give management exactly what they want, leaving you pounding your chest like a maniac, but not getting a new contract for five years, which ends up being almost identical to the one you voted down.

Which is exactly why line pilots should listen to the lawyers and not each other about how to handle negotiations.

 

[igneousy2]

Sounds like a great way to get the NMB to not take you seriously, park negotiations, and give management exactly what they want, leaving you pounding your chest like a maniac, but not getting a new contract for five years, which ends up being almost identical to the one you voted down.

Which is exactly why line pilots should listen to the lawyers and not each other about how to handle negotiations.

Yep, just keep believing that management line. The NMB doesn't care what the contract says at the end of the day...all they care about is that there is a contract. They tell the union guys "i'm going to park you if you don't give in..." then they go down the hall to the management guys and tell them "we're going to release them if you don't give in." They don't care if the ending contract gets us industry leading wages or puts us at the bottom of the pile.

If it were that simple, and there was as much incentive to park us as the management hacks claim, then why would they give us a contract at all? Wouldn't we all just be "parked" in negotiations.