AirTran MEC CYA

[fletch717]

Oh the irony!

PCL and Fletch telling us how Gary is going to do business. That's rich.

Predicting Gary's next move isn't exactly your forte.

Stevie wonder could see what's comming. since I will be a bystander, Ill have a ringside seat to this train wreck.

 

[Parethd70]

Sounds to me like she was stupid enough to think that one pilot being downgraded caused ALL the fences to come down. The reality was the downgraded pilot lost his seat, but not the whole fence.

 

[B73av8r]

Sounds to me like she was stupid enough to think that one pilot being downgraded caused ALL the fences to come down. The reality was the downgraded pilot lost his seat, but not the whole fence.

You might want to listen to and read it again. Yes the whole fence, to never be seen again. Even when our Special Ed heard it, he could follow that point being made.

 

[fletch717]

Sounds to me like she was stupid enough to think that one pilot being downgraded caused ALL the fences to come down. The reality was the downgraded pilot lost his seat, but not the whole fence.

The way jack explained it sounded that if SWA downgraded 1 pilot then all the fences and protections come down. Did I not hear him correctly?

 

[redflyer65]

Remember your words when GK drops your new contract proposal on you, right now randy Babbitt is tearing it apart word by word. You won't be happy when it happens to you and it WILL happen.

Your comparing our ongoing Section Six with the SLI?

Very different my friend. About as different as your first agreement and the second.

How is Babbit tearing down our contract? Do tell..

 

[redflyer65]

Red,

I agree with you on both points. It is interesting.

And you are correct, SLI9 was always going to be better for the SWA pilot group vs arbitration. Period.

BTW, Where are all those protections again Max? Max? Ohhh Max.

You still believe Gary would have ever let it go to arbitration? How many times did he say he wanted a negotiated agreeement again?

Maybe Max has the answer..

 

[B73av8r]

You still believe Gary would have ever let it go to arbitration?

Yes.

How many times did he say he wanted a negotiated agreeement again?

He may want a pony ride on his birthday too, buteven if he says it over and over again, he may not get what he wants when he wants it.

Maybe Max has the answer..

I think what Max has to say needs to be taken with a pinch of the entire salt mine.

 

[humveedriver]

If nothing else, you have seen how seen how the AirTran pilot group was presented with several "truths". It was difficult to know what the real story was with an absence of strong leadership from our Chaiman and the divided factions of subcommittees below him. Looking at how it all played out, I'm grateful for the additional seniority numbers I got versus AIP1. AIP1 would have offered a temp pay increase for CPTs prior to downgrade and FO's an earlier pay increase.

 

[Parethd70]

The way jack explained it sounded that if SWA downgraded 1 pilot then all the fences and protections come down. Did I not hear him correctly?

Surely you read AIP 1? You aren't taking what appears to be a biased recording as truth? Who knows how this recording was edited.....one thing for sure....Jack appears to be more than frustrated when he tells Christine to read the agreement.

 

[maxblast72]

The way jack explained it sounded that if SWA downgraded 1 pilot then all the fences and protections come down. Did I not hear him correctly?

You did not hear him correctly. You need to read Side Letter 9, Paragraph H and Q&A #37 and #38 again. An appendix to Side Letter 9 listed 851 AirTran Captains that were to be given Captain Retention Slots that expired on 9/27/2020. No SWA FO could upgrade until all AirTran pilots with a Captain Retention slot sitting in the right seat were offered their seat back.

There were 3 conditions that would cause a Captain Retention Slot to be surrendered forever (SL9 Para H.2 through H.4):

1. A pilot retires
2. A pilot voluntarily downgrades himself
3. A pilot with a Captain Retention Slot and sitting in the right seat bypasses his first opportunity at re-upgrade.

Let's run through an example calling it Vacancy Bid 14-A (the first vacancy bid of 2014). Let's say Vacancy Bid 14-A had a plus 15 B737 CA and minus 25 B717 CA for a net reduction of 10 CA positions (as 3 B737-800s replace 5 B717s). Since normal Southwest Captain protections apply (SL9 Para H.1) in addition to the Captain Retention slot program (SL9 Para H.2), 15 of the displaced AirTran CAs would be guaranteed B737 CA vacancies if they wanted them (Q&A #37). The other 10 B717 CAs would be involuntarily downgraded. Since the downgraded AirTran pilots had Captain Retention slots, they had to be offered re-upgrade prior to any SWA FOs upgrading regardless of system seniority.

When referring to fences coming down, the fence between fleets dropped with a net reduction of CAs (for that one month's bid). In the B717 early departure scenario, the reductions would come from the B717 side triggering the movements listed above. If it was a seasonal downgrade and B737 CA positions were reduced as well, SWA B737 CA could displace to B717 CA (and thus force junior AirTran B717 CAs to the right seat). However, those downgraded AirTran B717 CAs would not lose their Captain Retention slots.

 

[B73av8r]

Surely you read AIP 1? You aren't taking what appears to be a biased recording as truth? Who knows how this recording was edited.....one thing for sure....Jack appears to be more than frustrated when he tells Christine to read the agreement.

She did read the agreement and the video points out her concerns are valid.

He's probably getting frustrated because he knows he has been caught in a lie and can't remember who he told what to.

It appears he is also frustrated with the fact of knowing that someone else knows and is more familiar with the blaring holes in the agreement he negotiated andante that someone did and is raising the bs flag about all of the so called "protections" the merger committee agreed to and continue to say we had.

 

[B73av8r]

You did not hear him correctly. You need to read Side Letter 9, Paragraph H and Q&A #37 and #38 again. An appendix to Side Letter 9 listed 851 AirTran Captains that were to be given Captain Retention Slots that expired on 9/27/2020. No SWA FO could upgrade until all AirTran pilots with a Captain Retention slot sitting in the right seat were offered their seat back.

There were 3 conditions that would cause a Captain Retention Slot to be surrendered forever (SL9 Para H.2 through H.4):

1. A pilot retires
2. A pilot voluntarily downgrades himself
3. A pilot with a Captain Retention Slot and sitting in the right seat bypasses his first opportunity at re-upgrade.

Let's run through an example calling it Vacancy Bid 14-A (the first vacancy bid of 2014). Let's say Vacancy Bid 14-A had a plus 15 B737 CA and minus 25 B717 CA for a net reduction of 10 CA positions (as 3 B737-800s replace 5 B717s). Since normal Southwest Captain protections apply (SL9 Para H.1) in addition to the Captain Retention slot program (SL9 Para H.2), 15 of the displaced AirTran CAs would be guaranteed B737 CA vacancies if they wanted them (Q&A #37). The other 10 B717 CAs would be involuntarily downgraded. Since the downgraded AirTran pilots had Captain Retention slots, they had to be offered re-upgrade prior to any SWA FOs upgrading regardless of system seniority.

When referring to fences coming down, the fence between fleets dropped with a net reduction of CAs (for that one month's bid). In the B717 early departure scenario, the reductions would come from the B717 side triggering the movements listed above. If it was a seasonal downgrade and B737 CA positions were reduced as well, SWA B737 CA could displace to B717 CA (and thus force junior AirTran B717 CAs to the right seat). However, those downgraded AirTran B717 CAs would not lose their Captain Retention slots.

Sounds to me, out of jacks own mouth, The ATL fence AND CAPT seat Protections drop. Period.

 

[maxblast72]

You still believe Gary would have ever let it go to arbitration? How many times did he say he wanted a negotiated agreeement again?

Maybe Max has the answer..

Gary Kelly told the ATN MEC at their first meeting shortly after the deal was announced about his desire to have the pilot groups vote on a package and his desire to avoid arbitration and the potential damage it could cause to the corporate culture (as relayed to the MC by the former ATN MEC Chair). Mike Van de Ven echoed the exact same message to the MCs on Day 1 of negotiations in May 2011. Gary Kelly hauled the entire ATN MEC to Dallas (joining the MC who was already out in Dallas) in July 2011 to give them the message one more time.

That is at least 3.

 

[maxblast72]

Sounds to me, out of jacks own mouth, The ATL fence AND CAPT seat Protections drop. Period.

Read the documents.

 

[B73av8r]

Read the documents.

Is that you Jack?

 

[maxblast72]

From the SL9 Q&A document:

5) Under what circumstances can a Southwest pilot displace an AirTran pilot from a Captain seat?

Only if a system‐wide Captain reduction and/or furloughs occur prior to Sept 27th, 2020.

-------------------

For example, seasonal downgrades cause minus 10 B737 CAs and minus 10 B717 CAs (a net reduction in CAs). For this particular vacancy bid, the fence between the fleets drops and displaced SWA CAs can displace into the B717 CA position (forcing the most junior AirTran CAs to the right seat). No where does it say those involuntarily downgraded Captains lose their Captain Retention slot. The conditions that cause the loss of Captain Retention slots is addressed in SL9 Para H.2 to H.4 pretty clearly.

 

[maxblast72]

Is that you Jack?

No. You know Jack doesn't do forums. He is too busy practicing his martial arts

 

[texman]

It's all in Black N White!?????? Promises and verbal don't mean Shizz

 

[B73av8r]

No. You know Jack doesn't do forums. He is too busy practicing his martial arts

I don't blame him after you guys dropped the ball so badly with this SLI and intentional withheld these little nuggets of information, some of our less contained guys may go off their rocker.

 

[PCL_128]

He's probably getting frustrated because he knows he has been caught in a lie and can't remember who he told what to.

Jack is no liar. Now, did he not understand his own documents? Has he forgotten some of the nuances over the past two years? Sure, that's possible. But intentionally lying about them? Not his style.

The problem, as you know, was that the documents were horribly written with loopholes strewn throughout them. Max talks with such confidence about the "protections," because that's what he believes the intent of the documents were, but the problem is that intent doesn't get you very far when the language itself is full of loopholes. Language always trumps intent and bargaining history. Of course, Max has virtually no experience, so he doesn't understand that. It's not his fault. He just never should have been involved in the first place.