Having pioneered the abuse of ALPA merger policy

[Jetjockey]

Eagles??? HA! Is that washed up Vick still on the team?

 

[eaglesview]

Eagles??? HA! Is that washed up Vick still on the team?

Yup he sure is. It's a bad time to be a Philly sports fan. Eagles suck, Phillies suck, Flyers suck and Sixers are golfing already.

 

[Skyflyin]

Many opinions on this thread as we are all entitled to. In the end as has been stated numerous times, the arbitrators will make the decision and we will have to live with it. All of this senseless back and forth bickering serves no purpose other than to give ammunition to both sides in the fight for ultimate seniority. I would expect the final decision to be somewhat like the delta/northwest sli. Everyone remaining within a small percentage of where they are currently at on their respective seniority lists. Of course, it would depend on whether they are in the upper, middle or bottom portion of the list.
Personally, I would be happy just remaining on my current equipment and base. We shall see what happens soon enough. Good luck to us all.

Well said, although any thoughts/ideas from the gallery are worthless, it's still fun and entertaining to follow along. Especially since, unlike sports teams, the outcome will affect the rest of your career.

What I find interesting is that ALPA put longevity back into the merger policy to try and soothe US Air, but if you look at the practicality of it it runs smack into the face of career expectations especially in this case You cannot give L-UAL credit for longevity without adversely affecting the career expectations of the L-CAL guys and you cannot give the L-CAL guys full credit for their career expectations without ignoring the longevity of the L-UAL guys.

The arbitrators are going to have to choose one or the other, but more than likely will choose a mixture pissing everyone off. I've been enjoying reading the transcripts and I'll have to say I think our (CAL) merger committee has been doing a very good job and it will be interesting to see the UAL merger committee counter next month.

Popcorn ready and fingers crossed.

 

[Jetjockey]

Yup he sure is. It's a bad time to be a Philly sports fan. Eagles suck, Phillies suck, Flyers suck and Sixers are golfing already.

BLACKHAWKS is where it's at my friend. NHL>>>>REAL SPORT!

Back to regularly scheduled UA/CAL pilot bashing...............

 

[Dan Roman]

BLACKHAWKS is where it's at my friend. NHL>>>>REAL SPORT!

Back to regularly scheduled UA/CAL pilot bashing...............

You'd appreciate that HA has an A330 Captain that played for the Penguins for 12 years and also with Gretzky on the LA Kings.

 

[minrest]

Well said, although any thoughts/ideas from the gallery are worthless, it's still fun and entertaining to follow along. Especially since, unlike sports teams, the outcome will affect the rest of your career.

What I find interesting is that ALPA put longevity back into the merger policy to try and soothe US Air, but if you look at the practicality of it it runs smack into the face of career expectations especially in this case You cannot give L-UAL credit for longevity without adversely affecting the career expectations of the L-CAL guys and you cannot give the L-CAL guys full credit for their career expectations without ignoring the longevity of the L-UAL guys.

The arbitrators are going to have to choose one or the other, but more than likely will choose a mixture pissing everyone off. I've been enjoying reading the transcripts and I'll have to say I think our (CAL) merger committee has been doing a very good job and it will be interesting to see the UAL merger committee counter next month.

Popcorn ready and fingers crossed.

I continue to hear that the difference in alpa policy is the addition of Longevity. In reality, the major change was enacting in the new policy was mandating that a jcba must be completed prior to sli. The new policy goes on the state that longevity is one item (out of three) that "must" be "considered" but not be given any particular weight.

I have read the usair/awa ruling and it is apparent that longevity was given serious consideration in creating the list. At the end of the day, the arbitrator decided that, after considering longevity, other factors were of more significance in this particular merger. In dal/nwa, longevity was also "considered." Again, while not required to be considered in the policy, it nonetheless was considered.

The ual/cal sli "must" consider longevity. That does not mean that it must be given any bearing in the final product (just as in usair and delta). Therefore, it would seem that the actual process of sli is really no different than it was in previous mergers.

 

[eaglesview]

I continue to hear that the difference in alpa policy is the addition of Longevity. In reality, the major change was enacting in the new policy was mandating that a jcba must be completed prior to sli. The new policy goes on the state that longevity is one item (out of three) that "must" be "considered" but not be given any particular weight.

I have read the usair/awa ruling and it is apparent that longevity was given serious consideration in creating the list. At the end of the day, the arbitrator decided that, after considering longevity, other factors were of more significance in this particular merger. In dal/nwa, longevity was also "considered." Again, while not required to be considered in the policy, it nonetheless was considered.

The ual/cal sli "must" consider longevity. That does not mean that it must be given any bearing in the final product (just as in usair and delta). Therefore, it would seem that the actual process of sli is really no different than it was in previous mergers.

You must be right....Continentals proposal has the CO pilot hired 9/27/2011 senior to 1,608 ACTIVE (ie NOT INCLUDING FURLOUGHED GUYS) United pilots.... Kind of funny but I guess it's like buying a car....shoot for the moon.

 

[fokker pilot]

Don't forget Air Wisconsin. Unlike Frontier, UAL bought Air Wisconsin and UAL ALPA hosed the pilots !!!

 

[chppr5]

Don't forget Air Wisconsin. Unlike Frontier, UAL bought Air Wisconsin and UAL ALPA hosed the pilots !!!

UAL bought Wisconsin as a feeder. Just like AMR bought Command, Nashville, Metro, just like uSAir bought Henson, PSA, Penn and Suburban. Get over it!

 

[Skyflyin]

You must be right....Continentals proposal has the CO pilot hired 9/27/2011 senior to 1,608 ACTIVE (ie NOT INCLUDING FURLOUGHED GUYS) United pilots.... Kind of funny but I guess it's like buying a car....shoot for the moon.

I haven't seen the proposal yet, but CAL hasn't hired anyone, before this year, since 2008 so we don't have anyone hired in 2011. We had recalls in 2010 and 2011, but they were 2007 and 2008 hires.

 

[fokker pilot]

UAL bought Air Wisconsin for it's Air Carrier slots at ORD that UAL ALPA brethren advanced their members at the ARW pilot's expense !

 

[dmb41]

Mesaba, Colgan, and Pinnacle was the first arbitrated award to use the new Alpa merger policy. The award came out June 2011 and the stovepipe ratios were used.

1) CRJ-900 Captain (M: 272/P: 100/C:0)
2) Q400 plus CRJ-200 Captains (M:88/P:581/C:149)
3) Saab Captains (M:132/P:0/C:149)
4) Jet First Officers (CRJ-900 and CRJ-200) (M:314/P:448/C:0)
5) Turboprop First Officers (M:194/P:0/C:158)
6) Constructive Notice Pilots (M:16/P:225/C/152)

 

[Mil Leave]

Mesaba, Colgan, and Pinnacle was the first arbitrated award to use the new Alpa merger policy. The award came out June 2011 and the stovepipe ratios were used.

1) CRJ-900 Captain (M: 272/P: 100/C:0)
2) Q400 plus CRJ-200 Captains (M:88/P:581/C:149)
3) Saab Captains (M:132/P:0/C:149)
4) Jet First Officers (CRJ-900 and CRJ-200) (M:314/P:448/C:0)
5) Turboprop First Officers (M:194/P:0/C:158)
6) Constructive Notice Pilots (M:16/P:225/C/152)

Notice there is no category called furloughed (even though there were furloughed pilots) and each of the six categories was ordered by Date of Longevity.

Apply this to UAL/CON and I think you would have a "fair" list that meets both ALPAs policy and follows past precedent. You would have to have furlough protection for the Cat 5 folks who were already actively flying if a furloughed member went above them. -Mil

 

[minrest]

Notice there is no category called furloughed (even though there were furloughed pilots) and each of the six categories was ordered by Date of Longevity.

Apply this to UAL/CON and I think you would have a "fair" list that meets both ALPAs policy and follows past precedent. You would have to have furlough protection for the Cat 5 folks who were already actively flying if a furloughed member went above them. -Mil

There are some key differences in these two mergers. For starters, the furloughed pilots from mesaba had all been recalled prior to SLI (much as the cal furloughs have been recalled). Second, there were relative few furloghed pilots at mesaba, all of whom were working for the carrier that had a superior contract in terms of work rules and pay.

In the cal/ual situation, you have a handful of ual furloughs that have been recalled (all in the previous few months), with we'll over 1300 (20%) still on furlough. On the call side, all of the 147 furloughs were recalled over two years ago and an additional 500 +\- new hires brought in. It's apples and oranges.

 

[Chairman]

I haven't seen the proposal yet, but CAL hasn't hired anyone, before this year, since 2008 so we don't have anyone hired in 2011. We had recalls in 2010 and 2011, but they were 2007 and 2008 hires.

I assume you have not read the transcripts or actually looked at the seniority list but you are wrong. 2 pilots were hired 9/27/2011 and placed above every furloughed UAL in direct violation of the transition agreement.

I won't post names but they are both Guam Based.