Delta RFP on 10-20 widebodies maybe coming in next 2-3 years--article

[General Lee]

Delta pilots are SELLOUTS- keep preaching that widebody line though

Chase that carrot pilots- it's all about the widebodies-

Heard Skywest is creating a bid for the CRJ 1000 to replace those inefficient -700's

I think I'd rather work for Skywest- hotter FAs and less corny pilots who at least seem to know how to have fun- and hell, give it time and delta's going to give them the domestic op anyway-

(Haven't dug on the arrogant double breasters in a while- so you know- no matter how good the delta job gets- no airline has done more damage to the airline pilot industry than Delta's continual lead in outsourcing-

How are those -900's coming along?

You mean the 737-900's (ERs)? They are on the way at the end of this year. As far as sellouts, I think you really didn't understand the new contract. There were 70 new 76 seaters allowed, only if DL got YOUR 717s, and a huge amount of 50 seaters were dumped for their inefficiencies. Some on here say the 50 seaters were going anyway due to an AD coming out or those planes were getting high on cycles themselves. Over 300 of the 50 seaters had lease through 2015, which is a fact. Most of them are leased, and if you owned the leases and knew that thy were coming up on too many cycles, you'd probably keep them on leases until the end. Instead, Bombardier was looking to increase their CR9 production, and the only way DL would do that is if they could take back 3 or so 50 seaters for one new CR9. That could only be done via the DL pilot contract. So, take 717s for a steal of a price, add a limited amount of CR9s and have the regionals fight over those to lower DCI costs, park 50 seaters that can't make money during high oil costs, and use the 717s where current 76 seaters fly, pushing those 76 and 70 seaters down to cover outgoing 50 seaters, using extra seats in those markets to try to make profits. It actually was a great plan that came together. DL pilots make an almost 20% pay raise in only 3 years, add more mainline Capt seats(717s) at great rates, get rid if over 140 total RJs that weren't profitable anyway, and even tightened INTL scope and domestic, while increasing the % of domestic flying for mainline vs DCI.

So Wave, where is the extra outsourcing? Read above, and then respond. Don't worry, you are already wrong.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

General,

You're delusional if you think letting Regional 'partners' fly a plane as big as a DC-9 is a good thing. Those where the jobs that NW/DL used to do!

Anderson just dialed up the heat a little bit on the scope limits and Delta pilots like you are saying 'the added heat feels good, I can't really tell the difference anyway. Where's my larger check?'

Your right about the less 50 seaters, the better. But Delta really was up against the wall with those planes needing re-engined. Anderson came up with this deal (along with Bombardier's help) to save literally hundreds of millions of dollars, and you gave him a pass for a higher payrate. You sold out the larger RJ for more pay.....again. That's the point that Wave is making, and he's right.

You can talk about less 50 seaters until your blue in the face, but you STILL allowed RJ drivers to fly your DC-9 sized passengers for a payraise. Period.

Next time, Anderson will get the 100 seat level of RJ he wants. He's proven he knows how to play you guys.....like a Stradivarius.

He won, easily.

And you let him.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

So now we care what Wave and Red think about our new planes?

You mean the same guys flying the heavy -800 to San Juan acting like they just launched service to another continent in a widebody?

GL, Don't fall for these two fools flamebait.....they are just mad the Delta interview didn't go as planned.

 

[General Lee]

So now we care what Wave and Red think about our new planes?

You mean the same guys flying the heavy -800 to San Juan acting like they just launched service to another continent in a widebody?

GL, Don't fall for these two fools flamebait.....they are just mad the Delta interview didn't go as planned.

Don't worry Bill, I enjoy debating Wave and Red. They try to make their points, but can't see the problems in their own backyard. DL has outsourced a lot, but the recent contract did address some of these issues, and they don't want to acknowledge that. That's ok, Wave and Red are probably good guys any of us would have drinks with.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

You're delusional if you think letting Regional 'partners' fly a plane as big as a DC-9 is a good thing. Those where the jobs that NW/DL used to do!

Anderson just dialed up the heat a little bit on the scope limits and Delta pilots like you are saying 'the added heat feels good, I can't really tell the difference anyway. Where's my larger check?'

Your right about the less 50 seaters, the better. But Delta really was up against the wall with those planes needing re-engined. Anderson came up with this deal (along with Bombardier's help) to save literally hundreds of millions of dollars, and you gave him a pass for a higher payrate. You sold out the larger RJ for more pay.....again. That's the point that Wave is making, and he's right.

You can talk about less 50 seaters until your blue in the face, but you STILL allowed RJ drivers to fly your DC-9 sized passengers for a payraise. Period.

Next time, Anderson will get the 100 seat level of RJ he wants. He's proven he knows how to play you guys.....like a Stradivarius.

He won, easily.

And you let him.

Red,

Your airline and my airline have bad issues in the past. The RJ problem did start with mine, but progressed faster during a BK. If you haven't been through one, it sucks, and I hope you never have to. Anyway, the last contract did address scope issues and pay issues, now that DL is seriously kicking tail. There were issues about RJ MX, but they could have been pushed off until 2015 or later, and that would have meant NOT taking your 717s in the BEST DEAL EVER. Face it, SWA paying $137 million to DL to use their planes against them, and then getting the right to purchase them after the leases at then value was pure genius. Then, parking inefficient RJs and having 70 new 76 seaters fill in for departing 50 seaters, while making DCI fight for them, was great too. Throw in a 20% raise over 3 years, and many things were accomplished. Throw in tighter INTL scope, and more of the "pie" for domestic flying and codeshare with AK, and the outsourcing problem was addressed. Maybe not totally fixed, but on the way. It's hard to fix it all at once. You will see that in your next negotiations.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

So now we care what Wave and Red think about our new planes?

You mean the same guys flying the heavy -800 to San Juan acting like they just launched service to another continent in a widebody?

GL, Don't fall for these two fools flamebait.....they are just mad the Delta interview didn't go as planned.

Just shows your predetermined bias about anything SW. I haven't seen any SW guys making that big of a deal out of SJU.

To be honest Bill, the only reason I care any about both the 800 and SJU are because they are bringing in the revenue....that's it. It's not a shuttle launch.

Never interviewed at DL. Never even put in an App. But nice try at your own flamebait there Bill.

So Bill, you okay with regional guys flying the same size planes that you once did at mainline? Because that's the bottom line here. To say otherwise is just trying to spin the facts. You know that right?

You notice how General completely dodged that part in his response? Its because he can't defend it...so he tries to talk about everything else. Like -900 orders or the 717. But those aren't at the center of what's wrong with DL outsourcing larger planes.

 

[waveflyer]

What redflyer just said

 

[General Lee]

Just shows your predetermined bias about anything SW. I haven't seen any SW guys making that big of a deal out of SJU.

To be honest Bill, the only reason I care any about both the 800 and SJU are because they are bringing in the revenue....that's it. It's not a shuttle launch.

Never interviewed at DL. Never even put in an App. But nice try at your own flamebait there Bill.

So Bill, you okay with regional guys flying the same size planes that you once did at mainline? Because that's the bottom line here. To say otherwise is just trying to spin the facts. You know that right?

You notice how General completely dodged that part in his response? Its because he can't defend it...so he tries to talk about everything else. Like -900 orders or the 717. But those aren't at the center of what's wrong with DL outsourcing larger planes.

Red,

Ok, I'll try to answer you about DC9 sized RJs. No, I don't like that. RJ proliferation was set in stages, with money attached to them at first. In the late 90s the 50 seaters grew into limited 70 seaters, with some Bae146s allowed at ASA.(I believe 5 total). The main problem came in BK, when a judge oversaw the introduction of 76 seaters, which really were 86 seaters (at Mesa), that were fit with 76 seat with "first class." There really wasn't much anyone could do at that point, and if you say otherwise you haven't been in an airline BK. it ain't fun. But, since that low point, things overall have gotten better. This last contract got rid of 140 overall RJs, even though some may have gone due to EVENTUAL mx issues. The incoming 76 seaters will fill in for those 50 seaters leaving, and YOUR 717s will gladly fill in for the 76 seaters. Everyone got something in the deal, except the DCI carriers. DL pilots got raises, tightened INTL and domestic scope, and will reclaim domestic routes that were recently flown by those 76 seaters via your 717s. Management got rid of 50 seaters and will put larger RJs with lower CASMs on old 50 seat routes, and they got 717s refurbished by your company to the tune of $137 million. (aka a great deal).

So, again commenting on Wave's "outsourcing" claims, the DL pilots turned it around on the latest contract. Fewer RJs, 717s, higher percentage of Joint venture INTL flying, higher percentage of flying mainline vs DCI, and higher percentage of flying with domestic code shares like AK. It's true the 76 seaters took some DC9 flying, but thanks to your 717s coming over, a lot of that will come back to mainline. You need to acknowledge that. If not, then you and Wave still don't understand. Adding 88 717s really helps. That means you also will be giving up a lot of "DC9" type routes yourself. How ironic! Branson, MO is probably very upset.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

You guys reloaded the RJ market and made -900's an accepted plane to outsource just when both AA and unical were fighting to keep theirs intact at lower sizes. Cut their legs out.

So I just don't like threads with more "miracle lures" about widebodies. One of the reasons I chose southwest is we aren't chasing carrots- we make good money having fun, flying a mid sized transport jet- you get in the pipe at delta and you aren't eating the carrot until you're a 777 captain- divide and conquer, caste system-

Of course the CRJ-900's were complicated by many issues- but that's how jets got off the mainline property to begin with- mgmt thought long term, complicated the issue, threw in some good ole fashioned greed and in 1990's RJ's were born- same exact playbook last year- it WILL bite you in the ass - it will bite ALL of us in the ass.

As for you billy boy, (you know the coward, lumbers who has me on ignore bc he can't help himself-) I figured out a long time ago that the best career for me was with a company that did NOT outsource. I didn't apply to anyone who outsourced after I was furloughed from my legacy and my job replaced by "regionals"

 

[General Lee]

You guys reloaded the RJ market and made -900's an accepted plane to outsource just when both AA and unical were fighting to keep theirs intact at lower sizes. Cut their legs out.

So I just don't like threads with more "miracle lures" about widebodies. One of the reasons I chose southwest is we aren't chasing carrots- we make good money having fun, flying a mid sized transport jet- you get in the pipe at delta and you aren't eating the carrot until you're a 777 captain- divide and conquer, caste system-

Of course the CRJ-900's were complicated by many issues- but that's how jets got off the mainline property to begin with- mgmt thought long term, complicated the issue, threw in some good ole fashioned greed and in 1990's RJ's were born- same exact playbook last year- it WILL bite you in the ass - it will bite ALL of us in the ass.

As for you billy boy, (you know the coward, lumbers who has me on ignore bc he can't help himself-) I figured out a long time ago that the best career for me was with a company that did NOT outsource. I didn't apply to anyone who outsourced after I was furloughed from my legacy and my job replaced by "regionals"

An accepted plane? It was at USAir and DL since the BKs after 9-11. Did you expect for mainline to TAKE THEM ALL BACK, when SKW and some other airlines owned some of the planes? How would that have worked? Republic (or Shuttle America) owns all of their E170s/175s. How again would we get those? DL had over 150 76 seaters already, and USAir probably had 120. The planes were already out there, and UAL already had E170s and CR7s, but they only used 66 seats. So, they had the "90 seater", but had less seats. CAL had unlimted 70 seat props that took away a lot of the CAL 735 flying out of EWR. (the new contract at DL and UAL now counts large props as 70 or 76 seat "jets"---not allowing them to be "unlimited") AA Eagle already had 70 seaters, and their BK was used to get 76 seaters. Are you blaming AA's BK on us????? Seriously Wave, you are sounding crazy. The AA BK judge was gonna let AA do whatever they wanted, regardless of what we did. You know that right? Right?


Now wait, you also said it would bite us in the ass......I guess you weren't paying attention, total RJs are down, and the larger RJs will be used on 50 seat routes, and YOUR 717s will be used on 76 seat routes. See how ironic that is? We will be using your "DC9s" to REPLACE 76 seaters on their routes, which will replace 50 seaters. You can't seem to understand the meaning of "recapturing routes." That is what DL is doing. TAKING THEM BACK. UPGAUGING.

As far as working for a company that NEVER outsources, well, you can sorta count Volaris in there, it does do some Mexico that you do not. Even though it is a FRACTION of what the legacies do with code-shares, it is outsourcing. So............guess what? You work for an airline that does SOME outsourcing. Sorry to break it to you. You also got outsourced by Airtran in the merger, before you merged lists. They intially did all of the Mexico and Caribbean flying. (AT had never gone to SNA before, but suddenly they were doing SNA to Cabo and MEX for you) Your management outsourced because your group wasn't INTL qualified and your computer systems couldn't handle it. So...........I guess they outsourced your routes to the cheaper, more INTL experienced pilots. Tell me why I am wrong and explain it. Is codesharing to Volaris a type of outsourcing? Could SWA afford to train all of you or SOME OF YOU? (The CVG base pre-9-11 did Central America and Aruba flying on the 757, and nobody else did for a few years----why couldn't your MDW base or some other base do the INTL flying only???) Please answer.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

No airline's pilot group has signed off on larger than 70 seats OUTSIDE of bankruptcy. The legal term being "under duress". Which means that your latest DALPA contract has just met the legal criteria for "precedent".

I didn't expect you to "take them all back"- never. I expected you to hold the line on size or slightly improve it. That's it. I didn't expect you to move mountains and certainly am grateful for the pay raises you got- that alleviates pressure on us-

But it's short term- outsourcing provides more downward pressure than any low pay rate

 

[Roomwithaview]

Yup

outsourcing provides more downward pressure than any low pay rate

Your codeshare hurts us in negotiations. They always point the finger at the regional stuff and bemoan the fact that "we're getting killed"

Our past leadership screwed the pooch with our SL32 because they were naive enough to believe that mgt wouldn't treat codeshare like a crack whore on crack. They couldn't have been more wrong and we spent the next decade getting it back under control.

You want to fix codeshare on your side? Start by getting those jobs under your umbrella. Mainline d-cked this up when they treated regional pilots like a pariah. Now that's where the majority of the new hires are coming from where as back in the day they were persona non grata. Blame ALPA and APA.

 

[FDJ2]

Red,

Y Face it, SWA paying $137 million to DL to use their planes against them, and then getting the right to purchase them after the leases at then value was pure genius.

Apparently it gets better, SWA also has to convert them to Delta specifications and paint them in Delta colors, then return them to Boeing, where Boeing gives them to Delta with a warranty.

 

[maxblast72]

Face it, SWA paying $137 million to DL to use their planes against them, and then getting the right to purchase them after the leases at then value was pure genius.

SWA is not paying Delta $137 to take the B717. SWA was going to pay $50 million to convert the B717 fleet to SWA spec. Now supposedly they are going to pay an extra $90 million to convert to Delta spec (and Boeing kicking in $40 million in discounts on future SWA 737s).

It is a win for both airlines. Delta gets to replace some DC-9s and upgage some CRJ-700/-900 flying while SWA gets back to single fleet type made up of all 143 seat or larger B737s quicker. The deal is probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars extra for each carrier annually.

And we all know Delta's balance sheet really doesn't need the long term debt of new aircraft as Delta already has a $2 billion stockholder deficit. Delta needs that free cash flow to go to attempting to reduce their pension underfunding, not cap ex.

 

[Scoot 11]

Delta pilots are SELLOUTS- keep preaching that widebody line though

Chase that carrot pilots- it's all about the widebodies-

Heard Skywest is creating a bid for the CRJ 1000 to replace those inefficient -700's

I think I'd rather work for Skywest- hotter FAs and less corny pilots who at least seem to know how to have fun- and hell, give it time and delta's going to give them the domestic op anyway-

(Haven't dug on the arrogant double breasters in a while- so you know- no matter how good the delta job gets- no airline has done more damage to the airline pilot industry than Delta's continual lead in outsourcing-

How are those -900's coming along?

You really need to come up with some new schtick! This is played out. If you want to call anyone a "sellout," look no further than the mirror, Mr. "pay for training." The southwest pukes with their pay for training requirement, and introduction of the support of "age 65" has killed this industry more than anyone. But then, stagnation is your payback, bitch!