Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Pinnacle is not Comair V2

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

EL10

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
104
I have read a lot of people making the claim that this is just a repeat of the Comair situation all over again. While physiologically I can understand why people are putting up the warning flag, they are two different animals. It boils down to the fleet. Comair had a mixed bag of 50, 70 and 90 seaters. The latter being some of the oldest high time airframes. No one wanted to take on more airframes that had a short shelf life and the wind down left them with a few of each type and the very top heavy longevity. Even if Delta would have given Comair additional 900s at the time they still would not have got a scale that would have brought crew costs down to a level in line with peer group.

So what makes 9E different is the end result is one of two paths. One the TA passes and the company in two half years is a pure 900 operator that makes it attractive to sell off, or the TA fails they scuttle the company and offer up the XJ 900s to the lowest bidder. The concessions are enough to make 9E attractive to keep in house that’s why they are beyond the cuts at Comair. They know what is sustainable and have a forecast of attrition for the next five years.

This is a horrible situation to be in right now and would never tell anyone to vote one way or another on a contract. In my opinion it is very simple two paths in front of you. I would not believe any conspiracy theories but the facts as they are laid out in front of you. No matter what you do the 200s are gone. You have the choice to take a beating and keep some jobs or shut the whole company down. Of course you must protect our profession but just as you are looking out for all pilots be aware that you have the responsibility of making the choice for the entire employee population.

The regional industry needs a new idea of how to apply pressure to get the wages up to a livable standard, yet at the same time it must be aware that doing so creates less incentive to outsource. The new UAL and DAL contracts both have paths to in sourcing flying. Managements have found that you can close down a company and restart a new one with all the same people and start them off at year one pay (Freedom, GoJets, Compass). Just look at what they did with ground handling over the past few years, same principle. They can create a new airline and give it top on the industry pay rates, because at the end of the day even the best first year pay is a lot less than the 12 year pay that same pilot was making before he got furloughed. The only way of this repeat cycle is to either a) get all the flying to mainline or b) have in the mainline contracts a minimum contract standard that the feeder carrier must provide along with ALPA seniority and longevity dictate what your pay rate is.

Best of luck to all 9E pilots, you got boxed into a corner. In this situation I do not believe the path you take will influence the industry. Delta has already done that for you. Do what is best for you and your family. Not one competing carrier has offered to help you guys out to hold the fictitious line, do not lose sight of that.
 
Why give the management anything. You're all hosed anyway. They will pop a bottle of Champgne, laugh, and take their bonus checks and families to the Aspen Four Seasons when you cave. Meanwhile you're stuck at the Comfort Inn requesting a microwave for your din din
 
I have never heard of a successful airline "shrinking to profitability". I could be wrong but Pinnacle is parking a little less than half the fleet, and its for the sake of Pinnacle? I like your logic, but i feel its optomistic at best. Delta is ponying up the cash because if Pinnacle liquidates the costs are WAAAAY worse than ponying up another 50+ million. Delta also gets a whipsaw minion to boot.
 
How do you figure the costs are higher for Delta if 9E liquidates? If 9E liquidates probably saves Delta money as it can shed downtown office, hangers, and the Flight Safety contracts. The airplanes are going away so that’s not issue. Parts can go with the airframes. The only costs they bare is paying 9E salaries until the flying is transferred and the doors closed.
 
Last edited:
How do you figure the costs are higher for Delta if 9E liquidates? If 9E liquidates probably saves Delta money as it can shed downtown office, hangers, and the Flight Safety contracts. The airplanes are going away so that’s not issue. Parts can go with the airframes. The only costs they bare is paying 9E salaries until the flying is transferred and the doors closed.

180+ airframes equate to how many flights per day? I dont know the answer, but if Pinnacle ceases, how much backfill could all the operators of Delta Airlines handle? A little, but there would be mass cancellations, stranded passengers, hotel rooms, delta dollars, lawsuits, and the brand would experience a massive blow. Yes they would recover, but it would be awhile. Comairs strike cost Delta 200 million+.... That was planned meaning delta knew it was coming, imagine if 182 airframes vanished today....
 
If the TA passes or not the only difference will be that the top 400 Captains keep their place. Either way the aircraft will slowly go away until there is 81 or zero. There is no way Delta can or would just shut the doors.

So if the TA doesn't pass, then yes, this is Comair all over again. Over the course of the next 3 years every one will lose their jobs.

If the TA passes all but the top 800 pilots get cut, half of them get down graded. They are at the top of the respective pay scales, and will never hire again. Their costs will be too high, and it will be just like Comair all over again.

Simple enough to understand?
 
My airline parked its entire 737 fleet and did not strand one passenger doing so. They can orderly shut the place down in a few months. Again believe what you want to believe.
 
What a fool you are, EL10. Management will do whatever it wants, with or without paycuts. Paycuts, from already crappy wages mind you. It's time pilots put a stop to this crap.
 
So if the TA doesn't pass, then yes, this is Comair all over again. Over the course of the next 3 years every one will lose their jobs.

If the TA passes all but the top 800 pilots get cut, half of them get down graded. They are at the top of the respective pay scales, and will never hire again. Their costs will be too high, and it will be just like Comair all over again.

Simple enough to understand?

It is, especially if(like myself) you lived through the Comair debacle. Those who haven't seem to think it's not possible, at least not with their airline. It's possible, folks, maybe even probable.
 
They will pop a bottle of Champgne, laugh, and take their bonus checks and families to the Aspen Four Seasons when you cave. Meanwhile you're stuck at the Comfort Inn requesting a microwave for your din din

I'm pretty sure you're going to be stuck requesting a microwave for din din regardless of how the 'greedy' CEO thing goes.
 
You are right management will do what they want to do. They have told exactly what the will do either way. So how do you propose to stop it? Vote no, they close the place down, move the flying to airline X run them through the bankruptcy car wash and close them down. What is your plan to stop the slide? What past result has proved your plan will work?
 
You are right management will do what they want to do. They have told exactly what the will do either way. So how do you propose to stop it? Vote no, they close the place down, move the flying to airline X run them through the bankruptcy car wash and close them down. What is your plan to stop the slide? What past result has proved your plan will work?

I don't believe anyone suggested "it" can be stopped.
 
Delta is getting creative in many ways and defying conventional wisdom. Who would of thought that a Major airline would buy an oil refinery or own a regional? The question is why wouldn't Delta want to own a regional? Because of the risk of a "Comair like" strike right? Maybe not! I don't see too many more strikes going forward in the regional industry. This is simply because of the number of CRJ operators out there that can take over the flying with a moments notice coupled with the reduction of 50 seat flying. This was not really the case when Comair walked out because they were one of the pioneers of CRJ flying in the US and Delta would have had fewer options to move those planes in a timely manner. In short, the Comair pilot group had all the leverage. In the current environment Delta has all the leverage with many options for regional feed and 9E will probably never gain the upper hand and hurt Delta like Comair did. When they purchase us there subsequently less labor risk and they no longer have to subsidize the profit margins they are currently paying to Compass, SkyWest, ASA, etc.
 
Delta lost its taste for owning regionals because of liability after Bowling Green.

A flight with a DL code, operated by a wholly-owned subsidiary, on an aircraft owned by DL, with a first officer trained by the wholly-owned subsidiary's ab initio pilot school.

Sometimes vertical integration is bad for risk management - particularly if you don't have operational control.
 
Delta lost its taste for owning regionals because of liability after Bowling Green.

A flight with a DL code, operated by a wholly-owned subsidiary, on an aircraft owned by DL, with a first officer trained by the wholly-owned subsidiary's ab initio pilot school.

Sometimes vertical integration is bad for risk management - particularly if you don't have operational control.

Or Lexington.

You haven't a clue what you speak of...

Remembering the passengers and crew of 5191...
 
Not one competing carrier has offered to help you guys out to hold the fictitious line, do not lose sight of that.

And voting YES will ensure you get ZERO from other airlines. I don't expect anyone to bail me out ever. I will have the integrity to tell management to shove it. Will you?
 
Yeah, but is your company threatening shutdown right now? I didn't think so. It was interesting watching my dad go on strike 5-6 times over his 40 year career and never crossing a picket line and finally losing his career for it. He always said the guys spouting off the loudest about holding lines and shutting it down were usually the first to cross the picket lines. Just saying!
 

Latest resources

Back
Top