ALPA/TWA Duty of Fair Representation Award

[B6Driver]

Oh my God!

ALPA will prevail in an appeal on that matter, if it ever gets to that. ALPA did NOT fail the TWA pilots. The APA screwed over the TWA pilots, and the aftermath of 9/11 rubbed salt in the wounds. But ALPA did nothing that they are alleged to have done.

But as to your question of what should happen in the event that a union actually does violate its duty of fair representation, the members should seek to recall the officers who took part and take action to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Stealing money from fellow members is not a suitable solution, however.

What a clueless tool.

 

[flyboyike]

ALPA will prevail in an appeal on that matter, if it ever gets to that. ALPA did NOT fail the TWA pilots. The APA screwed over the TWA pilots, and the aftermath of 9/11 rubbed salt in the wounds. But ALPA did nothing that they are alleged to have done.

I think you actually believe that.

 

[matchthehatch]

This the problem with any lawsuit against a union. You're never suing some nebulous entity, you're suing your fellow pilots and taking money out of their pockets. Even if you don't win (and I don't think the TWA pilots ultimately will), you still wasted incredible amounts of your fellow pilots' money on the defense that typically costs millions of dollars for a long-term suit. Where is the honor in taking money out of your union brother's pockets?

So if we use this argument and apply it to other cases, then a company shouldn't be held liable for dumping toxic chemicals into a river, because employees will be financially harmed when the company declares bankruptcy. Or a father who, while drunk, plows his car into a group of spectators, should not be sentenced to prison, because he will not be able to provide for his family while incarcerated.

Sorry man, but your argument is terrible.

 

[ironspud]

It's not stealing if the courts rule for the plaintiffs. And BTW, Woerth wasn't solely responsible for ALPA's actions -- he had support from MECs.

Especially the DAL MEC.

 

[SWA Bubba]

ALPA will prevail in an appeal on that matter, if it ever gets to that. ALPA did NOT fail the TWA pilots. The APA screwed over the TWA pilots, and the aftermath of 9/11 rubbed salt in the wounds. But ALPA did nothing that they are alleged to have done.

But as to your question of what should happen in the event that a union actually does violate its duty of fair representation, the members should seek to recall the officers who took part and take action to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Stealing money from fellow members is not a suitable solution, however.

You dodged the question. OK, it's obvious that YOU believe (or at the very least, you want to believe) that they didn't do anything wrong. As it turns our, and unfortunately for ALPA, the jury found otherwise. The term you should have used above is not "alleged to have done," but rather "judged by a court to have done."

However, for the sake of argument, if they DID fail their DFR, why do you believe that the harmed membbers shouldn't be made whole? Okay, recall the offending officers, but you think it's not "fair" to redress their wrongs? Really? So if your brokerage agent cheats you out of your retirement money, the firm should fire him, but NOT recompense you because it might take money from their shareholders or other clients? Do you really believe that? That seems to be what you're saying.

And as I'm sure you know, you can appeal a jury verdict based on technical issues, legal issues, or new information; however you cannot appeal their verdict simply on the grounds that you don't like it. You have to have a legal reason. You can stall (which seems to be ALPA's current strategy), but that falls under the category of legal manipulation, not justice. A good union brother like yourself should know better.

Like I said, this is not on individual ALPA members, but rather on their leadership at that time. They're gone from those positions, but according to they eyes of the law, they did wrong in ALPA's name. That makes ALPA responsible. And the people that they wronged have a right to have that wrong addressed. Sorry that's inconvenient for you.

Bubba

 

[Bringupthebird]

I think it's been settled in court (an apparently in most of the principals' minds) that ALPA did indeed not only fail, but intentionally so, in their DFR by trying to sell out the TWA pilots in return for trying to suck up to APA for political purposes.

As they later did against the AWA pilots and the Nicolau award.

 

[PCL_128]

The term you should have used above is not "alleged to have done," but rather "judged by a court to have done."

This process isn't over. Very far from it. We still haven't even gone to the penalty phase, and appeals can't even be considered until after that. Until the appeals are done, this case is still far from determined.

However, for the sake of argument, if they DID fail their DFR, why do you believe that the harmed membbers shouldn't be made whole? Okay, recall the offending officers, but you think it's not "fair" to redress their wrongs? Really? So if your brokerage agent cheats you out of your retirement money, the firm should fire him, but NOT recompense you because it might take money from their shareholders or other clients? Do you really believe that? That seems to be what you're saying.

When you sue your insurance company, you aren't suing your union brothers and sisters. That should mean something. Sorry, but I don't feel it's right to take money out of your fellow union members' pockets.

And as I'm sure you know, you can appeal a jury verdict based on technical issues, legal issues, or new information; however you cannot appeal their verdict simply on the grounds that you don't like it.

Actually, you can. It's called a motion for a judgment notwithstanding the verdict. It's used when a jury comes to a decision that is clearly so far outside of the law that a judge can overturn their decision.

You have to have a legal reason. You can stall (which seems to be ALPA's current strategy), but that falls under the category of legal manipulation, not justice. A good union brother like yourself should know better.

There are plenty of reasons to appeal this case, and every reason to believe that the appeals will be successful. It's not "stalling" to use the appeals process.

 

[glasspilot1]

They deserve some kind of compensation, but I am not sure it should come from ALPA. The problem is that the money will come from other pilots. Most of the pilots that had nothing to do with neither the decision making process nor the guidence to direct it..... The people who were the ALPA decision makers of the day are no longer there. All those people are gone with their millions of dollars, and the membership and current leadership will be forced to deal with the burden.

The lawsuit needs to be against the ALPA membership of the day and not against the organization. Dwayne Worth as I recall.

It's not our fault the courts take this long. The lawsuit was first filed in 2002, over 10 years ago! We won the DFR suit in July 2011. NOW we're waiting on a SEPARATE (yes, I'm yelling) damages suit. By the time the damages are determined it'll be, what, 12 or 13+ years?

I'm sorry the court system can take so absolutely, ridiculously long to play out. We're not going to lay down "so as not to hurt brother pilots", it's not the way it works!

 

[redflyer65]

The judge could have overturned it already. He hasn't. He's letting it go forward. There is a TON of weight when a jury convicts. Especially 12-0. They've heard all the evidence and ruled. Very, very rarely will any verdict of this magnatude get completely overturned.

My prediction? The money judgement (whatever that might be), could be reduced somewhat, but that's probably it. So from the TWA side, you want a huge initial judgement, like 40 million. Then ALPA might get it down to 20 million and done deal. Something along those lines. I just made up the dollar amounts as an example.

 

[PCL_128]

The judge could have overturned it already. He hasn't. He's letting it go forward. There is a TON of weight when a jury convicts. Especially 12-0. They've heard all the evidence and ruled. Very, very rarely will any verdict of this magnatude get completely overturned.

Verdicts like this get overturned all the time. A DFR case is incredibly technical, and an appeals panel is likely to see things quite differently than a jury of 12 laymen was. And that's assuming that the second jury even awards them any money in the first place.

 

[ultrarunner]

I guess ALPA was banking on sympathy in-as-much as they chose a jury-trial...ALPA likely conceded they would have lost a bench-trial...

 

[redflyer65]

Verdicts like this get overturned all the time. A DFR case is incredibly technical, and an appeals panel is likely to see things quite differently than a jury of 12 laymen was. And that's assuming that the second jury even awards them any money in the first place.

And why didn't the bench judge overturn it already? He saw all the same evidence.

 

[Turtle21]

Verdicts like this get overturned all the time. A DFR case is incredibly technical, and an appeals panel is likely to see things quite differently than a jury of 12 laymen was. And that's assuming that the second jury even awards them any money in the first place.

I agree. Litigation that hopes to win 100s of millions of dollars is always a tedious, incredibly technical, and risky venture... especially DFR. The chances of ever getting better than 5 cents of the dollar, in any DFR, is remote. Its just the way it is. Courts have an extraordinary reluctance to interfere with union operations and afford them a wide range of reasonableness in their activities.

Not that folks shouldn't sue, as long as they understand the risks, and as long as they realize that time will surely and steadily erode the resolve of many within their class. Each person has to weigh for themselves the risk involved in each new opportunity to fund the lawyers.

 

[igneousy2]

Lee Moak says no members are going to be assessed...so it must be true!

What do you expect him to say? If he said, "hey, this might bankrupt ALPA" it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, as every major pilot group runs for the doors.

As far as the comment that APA is who screwed the TWA pilots, that may be true in a philosophical sense but absolutely not in a legal sense. APA had no legal duty to the TWA pilots.

When you belong to a union, you are together for better or worse. You reap the benefits together (gotta love those insurance discounts!) and you pay together.

 

[Turtle21]

Lee Moak says no members are going to be assessed...so it must be true!

What do you expect him to say? If he said, "hey, this might bankrupt ALPA" it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, as every major pilot group runs for the doors.

As far as the comment that APA is who screwed the TWA pilots, that may be true in a philosophical sense but absolutely not in a legal sense. APA had no legal duty to the TWA pilots.

When you belong to a union, you are together for better or worse. You reap the benefits together (gotta love those insurance discounts!) and you pay together.

Reminds me of Baghdad Bob!

 

[FDJ2]

The judge could have overturned it already. He hasn't. He's letting it go forward. There is a TON of weight when a jury convicts. Especially 12-0. They've heard all the evidence and ruled. Very, very rarely will any verdict of this magnatude get completely overturned.

Spellacy v. ALPA, overturned as a matter of law.

 

[SWA Bubba]

When you sue your insurance company, you aren't suing your union brothers and sisters. That should mean something. Sorry, but I don't feel it's right to take money out of your fellow union members' pockets.

Ahhh... here's the crux of the matter. If an entity screws you financially, you can have that addressed. ..... unless, of course, it's an entity composed of pilots--then, if you have been screwed, you should just stay screwed. Because asking them to repay their theft just isn't right. I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up, PCL.


By the way, if it isn't right to "take money out of your fellow union members' pockets," how do you feel about those "fellow union members" who took money out of THEIR pockets in the first place (at least according to the jury)?


And besides, those guys are part of APA now, not ALPA. So while it may be damages from a pilot union that their seeking, it's not from their "fellow union members." Or did you just mean from YOUR union? You know, whether people agree with you or not on your union positions, you're ususally pretty consistent with your principles. However, here your hypocracy is astounding.


Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Spellacy v. ALPA, overturned as a matter of law.

While certainly true in this particular case, this almost never happens (and in Spellacy, as in most of these cases, it was the trial judge who set aside the verdict, something this particular trial judge neglected to do). Damages get changed all the time--for lots of reasons--but when a jury says you're guilty, 99% of the time, you stay guilty.

Bubba

 

[FDJ2]

While certainly true in this particular case, this almost never happens (and in Spellacy, as in most of these cases, it was the trial judge who set aside the verdict, something this particular trial judge neglected to do).

The US Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, reviewed the case de novo and affirmed the judgment of the district court. As you know, under the de novo review the case is effectively retried. In Spellacy's case by the Second Circuit.

The standards for dismissal as a matter of law are difficult, but exist because juries can get it wrong, particularly with complex legal questions.

A grant of judgment as a matter of law when “(1) there is such a complete absence of evidence supporting the verdict that the jury's findings could only have been the result of sheer surmise or conjecture, or (2) there is such an overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of the movant that reasonable and fair minded [jurors] could not arrive at a verdict against [it].”

Courts as you know give a wide degree of latitude to unions with regards to their duty of fair representation. DFR cases rarely succeed, about 5%.

 

[SWA Bubba]

The US Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, reviewed the case de novo and affirmed the judgment of the district court. As you know, under the de novo review the case is effectively retried. In Spellacy's case by the Second Circuit.

Here you're making it seem like someone else overturned the verdict. As I said, the trial judge himself (Weinstein, I believe) set aside the verdict on a matter of law. The Court of Appeals only affirmed his actions after the plaintiffs appealed that decision. As I said, this is how it usually goes, and it didn't happen in the ALPA/TWA verdict.

Courts as you know give a wide degree of latitude to unions with regards to their duty of fair representation. DFR cases rarely succeed, about 5%.

Here you're mixing apples with oranges to further muddle the argument. "DFR cases rarely succeed, about 5%," is what you said, implying that ALPA has a 95% chance of overturning this verdict. Baloney. Even if your 5% number is true (personally, I've never seen such a statistic), that would refer to the total cases initiated, NOT cases already won at a jury trial and then later overturned.

Is it still possible that ALPA will prevail and get the verdict set aside? I suppose it's possible. However, it's not anywhere near as likely as you and PCL seem to think.

Bubba

 

[dicko]

Here you're making it seem like someone else overturned the verdict. As I said, the trial judge himself (Weinstein, I believe) set aside the verdict on a matter of law. The Court of Appeals only affirmed his actions after the plaintiffs appealed that decision. As I said, this is how it usually goes, and it didn't happen in the ALPA/TWA verdict.



Here you're mixing apples with oranges to further muddle the argument. "DFR cases rarely succeed, about 5%," is what you said, implying that ALPA has a 95% chance of overturning this verdict. Baloney. Even if your 5% number is true (personally, I've never seen such a statistic), that would refer to the total cases initiated, NOT cases already won at a jury trial and then later overturned.

Is it still possible that ALPA will prevail and get the verdict set aside? I suppose it's possible. However, it's not anywhere near as likely as you and PCL seem to think.

Bubba

The end is near - I agree with Bubba.

The end result will be as shady as the circumstances that started this unseemly circus. ALPA will settle quietly for a great deal of money. It will be a fraction of the amount that is asked for.

"Not with a bang, but a whimper" - Eliot.

 

[SWA Bubba]

The end is near - I agree with Bubba.

....

Hmmm...

Maybe the Mayans were correct after all.

Bubba

 

[Jim]

Reminds me of Baghdad Bob!

Once again I will point out you and your union's lack of integrity. Baghdad Bob? Pot met kettle.

 

[PCL_128]

Ahhh... here's the crux of the matter. If an entity screws you financially, you can have that addressed. .....

Even with "entities," I'm generally very opposed to these sorts of suits. For example, I absolutely despise suits against doctors and hospitals for malpractice. It's the incredibly rare case where it's actually justified. I prefer government regulation to avoid these sorts of problems in the first place, rather than relying upon citizens suing corporations and relying upon the courts to sufficiently punish companies and organizations enough to discourage behavior.

 

[igneousy2]

Even with "entities," I'm generally very opposed to these sorts of suits. For example, I absolutely despise suits against doctors and hospitals for malpractice. It's the incredibly rare case where it's actually justified. I prefer government regulation to avoid these sorts of problems in the first place, rather than relying upon citizens suing corporations and relying upon the courts to sufficiently punish companies and organizations enough to discourage behavior.

What are you talking about...how would regulations help in either case.

There was a doctor in Hawaii that cut out a piece of a screwdriver and inserted it in someone's spine in place of the titanium rods they forgot to order. He was surprised that a stainless steel screwdriver shaft with the same diameter as a titanium rod intended to be inserted into spines did not have the same strength. What regulation could possibly have been in place without the benefit of hind-site.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1630844

There is a law that says unions owe members fair representation. How is this any different from what a regulation would say. What Woerth did was not only a civil DFR, but was borderline criminal. If a lawyer who represented you was secretly informing the other party about you for "a cut" from the other side, wouldn't that constitute some sort of criminal fraud?

Call me crazy, but I am embareassed at the behavior of the union I belong to, I hope it stings because I don't want it to ever happen again.

 

[PCL_128]

Call me crazy, but I am embareassed at the behavior of the union I belong to, I hope it stings because I don't want it to ever happen again.

Well, you're in luck then, because it never even happened the first time!

 

[ualdriver]

Just curious.....have any of the people on this thread telling us about all the evils ALPA supposedly committed against the TWA pilots even read the court transcript in its entirety?

 

[PCL_128]

Just curious.....have any of the people on this thread telling us about all the evils ALPA supposedly committed against the TWA pilots even read the court transcript in its entirety?

Probably none. Most of them probably only read that crap briefing written by Seham that was posted ages ago and wasn't even allowed to be admitted by the judge because it was clear that he wasn't an "expert" as he claimed.

 

[ualdriver]

Probably none. Most of them probably only read that crap briefing written by Seham that was posted ages ago and wasn't even allowed to be admitted by the judge because it was clear that he wasn't an "expert" as he claimed.

After having read the case when it was posted on that TWA website (maybe a year or two ago?), it just reinforced my hope that I never have to have my fate determined by a "jury of my peers." I'll take a panel of judges any day of the week.

 

[LJDRVR]

Even with "entities," I'm generally very opposed to these sorts of suits. For example, I absolutely despise suits against doctors and hospitals for malpractice. It's the incredibly rare case where it's actually justified.

Another great example of a pilot who thinks he understands how everything works. Patently wrong. US hospitals are the scene of 100,000 - 150,000 patient deaths every year, caused by error.