ALPA/TWA Duty of Fair Representation Award

[Super 80]

Does anyone have any news of what the Judge awarded the former TWA pilots from ALPA based on their DFR lawsuit? I thought the decision was supposed to have been handed down by now.

 

[TWA Dude]

We're in the discovery phase for damages now. Once that's done a damages trial will be scheduled, hopefully within a year. At that point we'll have a dollar amount. Then comes the appeal. Two to three years till resolution.

 

[Super 80]

Thanks.

 

[Flyer1015]

I hope you TWA folks take ALPA through the cleaners.

 

[Splert]

I hope you TWA folks take ALPA through the cleaners.

You mean other pilots, right?

 

[PCL_128]

I hope you TWA folks take ALPA through the cleaners.

Keep dreaming.

 

[Turtle21]

In my opinion ALPA threw the TWA pilots under the mothership in an attempt to get APA back into the barn. I wouldn't mind seeing the ALPA elite troffers having to cut back on their caviar and crumpets (though I think it would be more of a punishment to them if they had to.. gasp, wear a pilot uniform).

Sadly this righteous assault on the ALPA castle will probably find the walls are impenetrable, even if a few valiant souls breach the mote. I suspect ALPA will drag it on for years and erode the vigor and wallets of the ones thy already staked in the heart. At long last ALAP will probably put a short summary in the next Flying the Line, with a self-serving explanation, as a further twist of the dagger.

Other than that, ALPA rocks.

 

[Flyer1015]

Keep dreaming.

Epic DFR fail. Not a dream, but a FAILURE.

 

[Dan Roman]

You mean other pilots, right?

Well said.

 

[Jim]

In my opinion ALPA threw the TWA pilots under the mothership in an attempt to get APA back into the barn. I wouldn't mind seeing the ALPA elite troffers having to cut back on their caviar and crumpets (though I think it would be more of a punishment to them if they had to.. gasp, wear a pilot uniform).

Sadly this righteous assault on the ALPA castle will probably find the walls are impenetrable, even if a few valiant souls breach the mote. I suspect ALPA will drag it on for years and erode the vigor and wallets of the ones thy already staked in the heart. At long last ALAP will probably put a short summary in the next Flying the Line, with a self-serving explanation, as a further twist of the dagger.

Other than that, ALPA rocks.

Laughable coming from someone who belongs to a pilot group with absolutely zero integrity.

 

[ironspud]

You mean other pilots, right?

Especially them.

 

[Jim]

For what it's worth, when Lee Moak met with our pilot group last month he said that no current ALPA pilots would be hit any type of assessment if damages are awarded.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't know why some are so intent on fear-mongering. I think the chance of an assessment to pay any damages is zero. ALPA is insured and they won't go bankrupt over this.

 

[PCL_128]

Epic DFR fail. Not a dream, but a FAILURE.

Yes, because your experience and qualifications in this area are unparalleled.

 

[doh]

ALPA works directly against the best interests of the vast majority of its members. USAPA works directly against the best interests of all its members. I hope I never have dealings with either one of them.

 

[livin'thesim]

PFT128 - the big ALPA hero!

You're a joke, junior.

 

[xkuzme1]

I also believe that the TWA folks were thrown under the bus by yesterdays ALPA. They deserve some kind of compensation, but I am not sure it should come from ALPA. The problem is that the money will come from other pilots. Most of the pilots that had nothing to do with neither the decision making process nor the guidence to direct it, AND 99% of the ALPA pilots are making WAY less than they were in 2001. The people who were the ALPA decision makers of the day are no longer there. All those people are gone with their millions of dollars, and the membership and current leadership will be forced to deal with the burden.

The lawsuit needs to be against the ALPA membership of the day and not against the organization. Dwayne Worth as I recall.

X

 

[PCL_128]

The problem is that the money will come from other pilots.

This the problem with any lawsuit against a union. You're never suing some nebulous entity, you're suing your fellow pilots and taking money out of their pockets. Even if you don't win (and I don't think the TWA pilots ultimately will), you still wasted incredible amounts of your fellow pilots' money on the defense that typically costs millions of dollars for a long-term suit. Where is the honor in taking money out of your union brother's pockets?

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure union presidents are indemnified from personal lawsuits pertaining to official actions they performed in office. In other words, ALPA is the proper (and indeed only legal) entity to sue for Woerth's actions.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure union presidents are indemnified from personal lawsuits pertaining to official actions they performed in office. In other words, ALPA is the proper (and indeed only legal) entity to sue for Woerth's actions.

Yes, it's true that you can't go after Woerth personally. Still doesn't make it right to steal money out of the pockets of union brothers.

 

[fletch717]

Yes, it's true that you can't go after Woerth personally. Still doesn't make it right to steal money out of the pockets of union brothers.

What ALPA did to the TWA pilots was far worse. If other pilots have to pay it should serve as a warning to keep your union from putting itself before those it claims to have in their best interest. Two words "Term Limits" on all ALPA officers.

 

[TWA Dude]

Still doesn't make it right to steal money out of the pockets of union brothers.

It's not stealing if the courts rule for the plaintiffs. And BTW, Woerth wasn't solely responsible for ALPA's actions -- he had support from MECs.

 

[SWA/FO]

OH, PCL you found a thread that actually wants your input, NOT!

 

[SWA Bubba]

This the problem with any lawsuit against a union. You're never suing some nebulous entity, you're suing your fellow pilots and taking money out of their pockets. Even if you don't win (and I don't think the TWA pilots ultimately will), you still wasted incredible amounts of your fellow pilots' money on the defense that typically costs millions of dollars for a long-term suit. Where is the honor in taking money out of your union brother's pockets?

Okay, PCL, here's a serious question then:

What IS the right thing to do? I think it's been settled in court (an apparently in most of the principals' minds) that ALPA did indeed not only fail, but intentionally so, in their DFR by trying to sell out the TWA pilots in return for trying to suck up to APA for political purposes. Or at least that's the way I understand it, not being a player in that particular game. So assuming that to be the case, why do you think that the wronged pilots shouldn't be made whole through the courts? Are you saying their screwjob is just too bad, because ALPA is too important to be held accountable? Their leaders are beyond accountability because their organization may suffer financially? Where's the honor in that?!

I actually agree with you and others (like Xkuzme) that the average ALPA pilot is not personally responsible for what happened, and essentially had no way to control the events, one way or the other. However, their elected leaders apparently did wrong in the organization's name (and can't even claim that it was accidental). Therefore, the organization IS accountable. That's the same for a company or a government as well as a labor union. If you have crappy or dishonest leaders, then get rid of them; but expect to pay for their misdeeds.

I know you're a big union guy, PCL (and specifically a part of ALPA). You're always preaching brotherhood and doing the right thing and all. If you had to speak to them personally, what would you say to the union brothers who got screwed for politics? Sorry, but too bad? Is that really your take?

You know, if ALPA eventually prevails like you predict (or at least practically prevails) through dilution, time passage, death by old age of the claimants, etc., then all that's been shown is that delay and manipulation of the court system is still a viable way out of your responsibilities.

Anyway, just kinda' curious as to your thoughts on this.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Okay, PCL, here's a serious question then:

What IS the right thing to do? I think it's been settled in court (an apparently in most of the principals' minds) that ALPA did indeed not only fail, but intentionally so, in their DFR by trying to sell out the TWA pilots in return for trying to suck up to APA for political purposes. Or at least that's the way I understand it, not being a player in that particular game. So assuming that to be the case, why do you think that the wronged pilots shouldn't be made whole through the courts? Are you saying their screwjob is just too bad, because ALPA is too important to be held accountable? Their leaders are beyond accountability because their organization may suffer financially? Where's the honor in that?!

I actually agree with you and others (like Xkuzme) that the average ALPA pilot is not personally responsible for what happened, and essentially had no way to control the events, one way or the other. However, their elected leaders apparently did wrong in the organization's name (and can't even claim that it was accidental). Therefore, the organization IS accountable. That's the same for a company or a government as well as a labor union. If you have crappy or dishonest leaders, then get rid of them; but expect to pay for their misdeeds.

I know you're a big union guy, PCL (and specifically a part of ALPA). You're always preaching brotherhood and doing the right thing and all. If you had to speak to them personally, what would you say to the union brothers who got screwed for politics? Sorry, but too bad? Is that really your take?

You know, if ALPA eventually prevails like you predict (or at least practically prevails) through dilution, time passage, death by old age of the claimants, etc., then all that's been shown is that delay and manipulation of the court system is still a viable way out of your responsibilities.

Anyway, just kinda' curious as to your thoughts on this.

Bubba

Exactly. PCL will say you should never sue ALPA. They are far too valuable for such trival things. The TWA pilots should be made whole.

 

[XTW]

I think it's been settled in court (an apparently in most of the principals' minds) that ALPA did indeed not only fail, but intentionally so, in their DFR by trying to sell out the TWA pilots in return for trying to suck up to APA for political purposes.

Actually, a jury of 12 (only 6 were required, but more were retained in the event any of the jurors had to be excused mid-trial) found ALPA to be guilty in their DFR. Also, the TWA pilots were harmed due to this fact.

Vote results from jury, 12-0. Guilty as charged.


X

 

[PCL_128]

I think it's been settled in court (an apparently in most of the principals' minds) that ALPA did indeed not only fail, but intentionally so, in their DFR by trying to sell out the TWA pilots in return for trying to suck up to APA for political purposes.

ALPA will prevail in an appeal on that matter, if it ever gets to that. ALPA did NOT fail the TWA pilots. The APA screwed over the TWA pilots, and the aftermath of 9/11 rubbed salt in the wounds. But ALPA did nothing that they are alleged to have done.

But as to your question of what should happen in the event that a union actually does violate its duty of fair representation, the members should seek to recall the officers who took part and take action to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Stealing money from fellow members is not a suitable solution, however.

 

[Noodles]

APA screwed over the TWA pilots with the blessing of ALPA. ALPA was so anxious to try and entice APA back in the fold, they were willing to screw anybody to try and make that happen.

 

[matchthehatch]

ALPA will prevail in an appeal on that matter, if it ever gets to that. ALPA did NOT fail the TWA pilots. The APA screwed over the TWA pilots, and the aftermath of 9/11 rubbed salt in the wounds. But ALPA did nothing that they are alleged to have done.

But as to your question of what should happen in the event that a union actually does violate its duty of fair representation, the members should seek to recall the officers who took part and take action to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Stealing money from fellow members is not a suitable solution, however.

Weak argument.

 

[Flying the Line]

Ever notice how he cries foul about how poorly air tran is being treated and then remember this. Air Tran got to vote and voted yes by a wide margin. TWA was never afforded that luxury.