717's to DELTA

[GIZMONC]

From the SWA 3Q 2012 Earnings announcement Gk made the following statement:

We have retrofitted 147 Southwest 737-700s with our updated cabin interior and plan to complete all 372 -700 retrofits in first half 2013. AirTran's -700s are receiving the updated interior as the aircraft are converted to the Southwest livery. We have added 26 737-800s to our fleet, with eight more deliveries scheduled for this year. Our near-term plans call for keeping the fleet relatively flat taking into account our aircraft deliveries, 737 Classic retirements, and leases/subleases to Delta. Overall, we anticipate our fleet modernization efforts will significantly benefit pre-tax results in excess of $700 million, annually, once fully implemented in 2015.

 

[fam62c]

So what, the pilots still aren't going with the planes.

 

[atr42flyer]

When is hiring going to start again?

 

[fletch717]

When is hiring going to start again?

20 year upgrade, I'd look elsewhere.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Fletch I think you're being an optimistic. I wouldn't look for hiring in the next 5 years and wouldn't be suprised if it was 10 years or longer.

 

[Flyarcticcat]

No hiring in 2013. Maybe in 2014 but only less than 200 for vacation and retirements.

 

[Cruncher]

ATR,

first very nice avatar.

When is hiring going to start again?

Second, sorry bro, I wish it was yesterday. If you are looking for the left seat anytime soon, prolly not here at SWA. But if you are looking for a great place to come to work, fly with "mostly" great people, make a very good living, ..., then SWA is still good to go!

I'm an optimist, but I don't see anything other than what's already been noted, increased vacation / age-65 retirements. I do believe though, that we are positioning ourselves well, strategically speaking that is. When the economy turns around, we'll be well placed.

-C

PS fly, ditto the avatar!

 

[fam62c]

Maybe he was asking about Delta hiring. By the time SW starts hiring there will be retirement attrition and movement at the legacies and possibly improved contracts. Buying a type rating to sit for 20+ years in the right seat of a 737, bouncing up and down all day and being very junior for many years will be a very tough sell for younger pilots.

SW will still (hopefully) be a good job that pays well, it just won't be a career with any real advancement opportunity because they've already hired all the Captains they will need for the next 20-25 years. If you want to live in one of the bases that you can get as a junior pilot it might be worth it for QOL if you don't mind reserve and working on weekends and holidays for 5-10 years.

The 1980's and 1990's were the time to get hired at SW, the people near the bottom and future new-hires will be junior forever. Growth...who knows but the CEO doesn't use that word anymore, he only talks about cost now. SW is already a very big airline. The money is good though and the job security so far has been unmatched in the industry.

 

[General Lee]

Upward movement is just not as fast at SWA due to fewer aircraft types. Their business model doesn't include that, which is one reason they are dumping the 717s. When one SWA Capt retires on the 737, one FO upgrades and one new hire fills in for the upgrading FO. That's not the same at the Legacies. One guy off the top leaves, and multiple upgrades on multiple planes, most of which pay more as you go bigger. That gives plenty of opportunities to try different planes, routes, long haul or short haul, etc. Over the next decade, the sys Chief Pilot stated a min of 3500 newhires at DL, whereas the VP of Flt Ops stated it could be up to 7000 in the next 10 years. By 2015, new hire pay is supposed to be $71 per hour, which is not bad at all.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[atr42flyer]

I was referring to SWA hiring, I had interviewed last DEC and was unsuccessful, but I would not pass on a job at Delta either!

 

[SWA/FO]

Upward movement is just not as fast at SWA due to fewer aircraft types. Their business model doesn't include that, which is one reason they are dumping the 717s. When one SWA Capt retires on the 737, one FO upgrades and one new hire fills in for the upgrading FO. That's not the same at the Legacies. One guy off the top leaves, and multiple upgrades on multiple planes, most of which pay more as you go bigger. That gives plenty of opportunities to try different planes, routes, long haul or short haul, etc. Over the next decade, the sys Chief Pilot stated a min of 3500 newhires at DL, whereas the VP of Flt Ops stated it could be up to 7000 in the next 10 years. By 2015, new hire pay is supposed to be $71 per hour, which is not bad at all.

Delta looks like the place to be, with all those old goats leaving soon.

 

[zman]

Delta, United, AMR/USAIR and even Alaska all have higher percentage retirements then SWA.

 

[canyonblue]

One guy off the top leaves, and multiple upgrades on multiple planes, most of which pay more as you go bigger. That gives plenty of opportunities to try different planes, routes, long haul or short haul, etc.


Bye Bye---General Lee

747-400: 16

777-200LR: 10

777: 8

A330-300: 21

A330-200: 11

So it's 66 "Big Airplanes" at Mama Delto, I wouldn't look at that as a great plan of action. And at Southwest you will make the same top out as the A330 FO and never have to leave the country and your family. Might be ok if you are single, but once you get married and have a family, being that far away would have it's drawbacks.

 

[General Lee]

747-400: 16

777-200LR: 10

777: 8

A330-300: 21

A330-200: 11
U
So it's 66 "Big Airplanes" at Mama Delto, I wouldn't look at that as a great plan of action. And at Southwest you will make the same top out as the A330 FO and never have to leave the country and your family. Might be ok if you are single, but once you get married and have a family, being that far away would have it's drawbacks.

By 2015 the smallest plane we will have (your 717s) will pay $195 an hour for 12 year Capts, and a lot more for everything else bigger, and then a new contract comes up in 2 1/2 years. Things will be moving rapidly, whereas you guys will stagnate due to the young AirTran group coming in. And, most of the retirements will come off of those 66 widebodies,(where's the 767-400? At least 20 of those) which crew more pilots per plane because of the long stage lengths. It's gonna "rain cash and upgrades." (Thanks to 500+ leaving per year and extra Greenslips handed out for lack of crews). You guys will be in a drought, for years. All 3 big legacies will have huge retirements. I bet the bottom half of your list will be looking.

And you forgot the 767-400, which pays the same as the A330 and does only INTL flying, like Heathrow and São Paulo. It's a separate category from the 757/767, paying about $20 more per hour with INTL override.

And of course, you neglected to add the 757/767, which are numerous, and fly all over the world. Those will pay equal to your 737s initially in the contract, and then pass them. Throw in INTL override and higher per diem, and it gets better.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

747-400: 16

777-200LR: 10

777: 8

A330-300: 21

A330-200: 11

So it's 66 "Big Airplanes" at Mama Delto, I wouldn't look at that as a great plan of action. And at Southwest you will make the same top out as the A330 FO and never have to leave the country and your family. Might be ok if you are single, but once you get married and have a family, being that far away would have it's drawbacks.

You forgot the 767/757 category Canyon....

I love International.....I only bid 3 or 4 day trips but if a guy wants to and can hold it, there are 12 days which go pretty senior.

Thanks for the opinion but a bad argument.

 

[say again]

Wow, still the same lame argument over why my flying is better than yours. Personal preference. Some people like staying within the US, while others enjoy the international trips. As for size of the plane...who cares?!?! I fly business jets and love it. Do a combo of both int'l and domestic. Personally, I enjoy the shorter legs versus trans-con/atlantic crossings. BUT, I enjoy my down time seeing the different sights of the world. Trade-off I guess.

 

[General Lee]

Wow, still the same lame argument over why my flying is better than yours. Personal preference. Some people like staying within the US, while others enjoy the international trips. As for size of the plane...who cares?!?! I fly business jets and love it. Do a combo of both int'l and domestic. Personally, I enjoy the shorter legs versus trans-con/atlantic crossings. BUT, I enjoy my down time seeing the different sights of the world. Trade-off I guess.

So, the Legacies ONLY fly INTL? We have plenty of pilots who have NEVER flown INTL routes or widebodies. I talked to a FNWA guy who has spent the last 25 years on the DC9, starting out at Republic, and who is now in the top 10 Captains in DTW on the DC9. But, he has a CHOICE. If he wants to, he can next go to the MD88, or bid the A330 as a Captain. That is the difference. Choice.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

So, the Legacies ONLY fly INTL? We have plenty of pilots who have NEVER flown INTL routes or widebodies. I talked to a FNWA guy who has spent the last 25 years on the DC9, starting out at Republic, and who is now in the top 10 Captains in DTW on the DC9. But, he has a CHOICE. If he wants to, he can next go to the MD88, or bid the A330 as a Captain. That is the difference. Choice.



Bye Bye---General Lee

5 legs a day to PNS and HSV, no thanks.

 

[canyonblue]

It's gonna "rain cash and upgrades."


Bye Bye---General Lee

I heard that enough in 2000 from "Legacy" guys, it doesn't always work out that way. The number one reason I chose SWA was it's balance sheet and the schedules. Rule Number One: You're in the Airline business, there are no sure things. Rule Number Two: Always remember Rule Number One

I bet the bottom half of your list will be looking.

I've seen it before, it didn't work out too well for them now did it?

 

[Crizz]

This discussion is unbecoming of the fine pilots at both Delta and Southwest.

 

[General Lee]

5 legs a day to PNS and HSV, no thanks.

And then bid a different plane, and that.....goes....away...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I heard that enough in 2000 from "Legacy" guys, it doesn't always work out that way. The number one reason I chose SWA was it's balance sheet and the schedules. Rule Number One: You're in the Airline business, there are no sure things. Rule Number Two: Always remember Rule Number One




I've seen it before, it didn't work out too well for them now did it?

Unless age 65 is increased, it is a mathematical certainty, people retiring that is. Whether or not there is growth or downsizing, that can change things no doubt. But just looking at mandatory retirements and the amount of younger AirTran guys coming in to the middle of the SWA list, stagnation does seem plausible for the SWA pilots, unless there is huge growth, which GK is not talking about these days, rather cost cutting.

As far as what happened to SWA guys in 2000 leaving and going to legacies, no, no it didn't work out well for them. I think capacity has shrunk, and the competition has also shrunk, with a total of 3 legacies a good possibility coming up here, helping everyone. The potential to move upward in pay and QOL at those 3 legacies exists thanks to the huge projected retirement numbers, something most LCCs lack. And many junior guys at those LCCs will try to get in on the initial hiring, which could make a big difference in future downturns. Being in the front of a hiring wave is really important.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

By 2015 the smallest plane we will have (your 717s) will pay $195 an hour for 12 year Capts, and a lot more for everything else bigger,

Bye Bye---General Lee

By 2020, the smallest airplane delta will be flying is a 757- bc the -900's are just not efficient, so clearly you'll have to outsource the 717's....
Right, GL?

No, this never does justice to either pilot group- but I've said it before- and again- the "cash and upgrades" disappeared pretty quick as soon as mgmt decided you guys needed a bankruptcy to gut your contract-

But to mitigate that, DALPA pilots voted to outsource more so the cuts weren't as bad-

Sorry, things will always change- but I wouldn't fly for delta for two reasons- you know what kind if opportunistic mgmt you have, and what sellouts you have in your union-

How's this choice GL- I chose not to fly one more leg for a legacy and much prefer a 6 leg day working for swa and Swapa than anything I experienced at my sellout legacy.

You rail on choice- well choices have consequences and the choices both mgmt and DALPA have made would not allow me to look in the mirror-

To each his own though yes voter-

When are those CRJ-1000's going to skywest?

 

[ATLplt]

This discussion is unbecoming of the fine pilots at both Delta and Southwest.

Did you expect something else? It's flightinfo...home of the "unit" measurement society.

Both Delta and Southwest pilots should be happy they are able to sustain an excellent QOL regardless what the name says on the side of the jet. We're all pilots and supposedly professionals. It be nice to support one another, but it's too easy to sling mud around, anonymously, from our keyboards. I wonder if the IT guys from IBM an HP or doctors from different universities lambaste each other like this on industry forums? It's like a high school parking lot Ford vs Chevy debate, but more ridiculous.

 

[texman]

Did you expect something else? It's flightinfo...home of the "unit" measurement society.

Both Delta and Southwest pilots should be happy they are able to sustain an excellent QOL regardless what the name says on the side of the jet. We're all pilots and supposedly professionals. It be nice to support one another, but it's too easy to sling mud around, anonymously, from our keyboards. I wonder if the IT guys from IBM an HP or doctors from different universities lambaste each other like this on industry forums? It's like a high school parking lot Ford vs Chevy debate, but more ridiculous.

No, because the real corporate world is a merit based system that does not have the protection of seniority and M/b. So no one cares. It is all based off performance. Shizz or get of the pot.

 

[B727FA]

Sorry, things will always change- but I wouldn't fly for delta for two reasons- you know what kind if opportunistic mgmt you have, and what sellouts you have in your union-

You could replace "delta" with ANY airline name there...

 

[General Lee]

There may be plenty if pilots thinking about applying or jumping ship from a LCC. These discussions have merrit because it makes people think about choices in career and life. The Corndogs get very defensive because they really enjoyed being "the darlings of the industry" after the fall of the legacies after 9-11. Before 9-11 there were SWA Capts leaving for UAL, which obviously didn't work out well for them. Their recent AT merger has thrown a stick into their "family" attitude, and the lack of retirements there, compared to the remaining legacies, has created stagnation, and many of the junior pilots there may very well be looking for better opportunities. It drives the Corndogs crazy that their once enviable position may be challenged, hence all of their responses. Sure, this industry runs on cycles, but cutting the legacies to just 3 total ensures more stability compared to the past, which is something pilots do want.

Consolidation just might be the key. Throw in huge retirements numbers, and people will be looking. And it is good to discuss differences on this board. I still think SWA is a great airline with great pay. But, the legacies are catching up, and they bring along faster upward movement and variety in planes and routes. When the pay catches up to SWA, that will be tough to ignore for many.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Did you expect something else? It's flightinfo...home of the "unit" measurement society.

Both Delta and Southwest pilots should be happy they are able to sustain an excellent QOL regardless what the name says on the side of the jet. We're all pilots and supposedly professionals. It be nice to support one another, but it's too easy to sling mud around, anonymously, from our keyboards. I wonder if the IT guys from IBM an HP or doctors from different universities lambaste each other like this on industry forums? It's like a high school parking lot Ford vs Chevy debate, but more ridiculous.

I just point out differences. The pay used to be the main difference SWA pilots pointed out, but that is quickly changing. If people are thinking of possibly jumping ship or applying to an airline, they may want to know about differences. Some people may not want to do multiple leg days for 30 years. It might be ok now while at a regional, but not as they grow older. I don't mind keeping it civil, though. I try.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

And then bid a different plane, and that.....goes....away...


Bye Bye---General Lee

I'll just tell that to my 13-year seniority dal neighbor. I doubt he can afford to make $140/hour, however as a 767 FO. At least as a juuuuunior ca, he's making $70 grand a year year less than his counterpart at SWA who can afford to have his wife stay at home.
Have fun working until 75 (your wife hopes).

 

[jonjuan]

Sorry, things will always change- but I wouldn't fly for delta for two reasons- you know what kind if opportunistic mgmt you have, and what sellouts you have in your union-

One comment: I hope you reallly don't believe you are immune to either.