717's to DELTA

[GIZMONC]

From the SWA 3Q 2012 Earnings announcement Gk made the following statement:

We have retrofitted 147 Southwest 737-700s with our updated cabin interior and plan to complete all 372 -700 retrofits in first half 2013. AirTran's -700s are receiving the updated interior as the aircraft are converted to the Southwest livery. We have added 26 737-800s to our fleet, with eight more deliveries scheduled for this year. Our near-term plans call for keeping the fleet relatively flat taking into account our aircraft deliveries, 737 Classic retirements, and leases/subleases to Delta. Overall, we anticipate our fleet modernization efforts will significantly benefit pre-tax results in excess of $700 million, annually, once fully implemented in 2015.

 

[fam62c]

So what, the pilots still aren't going with the planes.

 

[atr42flyer]

When is hiring going to start again?

 

[fletch717]

When is hiring going to start again?

20 year upgrade, I'd look elsewhere.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Fletch I think you're being an optimistic. I wouldn't look for hiring in the next 5 years and wouldn't be suprised if it was 10 years or longer.

 

[Flyarcticcat]

No hiring in 2013. Maybe in 2014 but only less than 200 for vacation and retirements.

 

[Cruncher]

ATR,

first very nice avatar.

When is hiring going to start again?

Second, sorry bro, I wish it was yesterday. If you are looking for the left seat anytime soon, prolly not here at SWA. But if you are looking for a great place to come to work, fly with "mostly" great people, make a very good living, ..., then SWA is still good to go!

I'm an optimist, but I don't see anything other than what's already been noted, increased vacation / age-65 retirements. I do believe though, that we are positioning ourselves well, strategically speaking that is. When the economy turns around, we'll be well placed.

-C

PS fly, ditto the avatar!

 

[fam62c]

Maybe he was asking about Delta hiring. By the time SW starts hiring there will be retirement attrition and movement at the legacies and possibly improved contracts. Buying a type rating to sit for 20+ years in the right seat of a 737, bouncing up and down all day and being very junior for many years will be a very tough sell for younger pilots.

SW will still (hopefully) be a good job that pays well, it just won't be a career with any real advancement opportunity because they've already hired all the Captains they will need for the next 20-25 years. If you want to live in one of the bases that you can get as a junior pilot it might be worth it for QOL if you don't mind reserve and working on weekends and holidays for 5-10 years.

The 1980's and 1990's were the time to get hired at SW, the people near the bottom and future new-hires will be junior forever. Growth...who knows but the CEO doesn't use that word anymore, he only talks about cost now. SW is already a very big airline. The money is good though and the job security so far has been unmatched in the industry.

 

[General Lee]

Upward movement is just not as fast at SWA due to fewer aircraft types. Their business model doesn't include that, which is one reason they are dumping the 717s. When one SWA Capt retires on the 737, one FO upgrades and one new hire fills in for the upgrading FO. That's not the same at the Legacies. One guy off the top leaves, and multiple upgrades on multiple planes, most of which pay more as you go bigger. That gives plenty of opportunities to try different planes, routes, long haul or short haul, etc. Over the next decade, the sys Chief Pilot stated a min of 3500 newhires at DL, whereas the VP of Flt Ops stated it could be up to 7000 in the next 10 years. By 2015, new hire pay is supposed to be $71 per hour, which is not bad at all.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[atr42flyer]

I was referring to SWA hiring, I had interviewed last DEC and was unsuccessful, but I would not pass on a job at Delta either!

 

[SWA/FO]

Upward movement is just not as fast at SWA due to fewer aircraft types. Their business model doesn't include that, which is one reason they are dumping the 717s. When one SWA Capt retires on the 737, one FO upgrades and one new hire fills in for the upgrading FO. That's not the same at the Legacies. One guy off the top leaves, and multiple upgrades on multiple planes, most of which pay more as you go bigger. That gives plenty of opportunities to try different planes, routes, long haul or short haul, etc. Over the next decade, the sys Chief Pilot stated a min of 3500 newhires at DL, whereas the VP of Flt Ops stated it could be up to 7000 in the next 10 years. By 2015, new hire pay is supposed to be $71 per hour, which is not bad at all.

Delta looks like the place to be, with all those old goats leaving soon.

 

[zman]

Delta, United, AMR/USAIR and even Alaska all have higher percentage retirements then SWA.

 

[canyonblue]

One guy off the top leaves, and multiple upgrades on multiple planes, most of which pay more as you go bigger. That gives plenty of opportunities to try different planes, routes, long haul or short haul, etc.


Bye Bye---General Lee

747-400: 16

777-200LR: 10

777: 8

A330-300: 21

A330-200: 11

So it's 66 "Big Airplanes" at Mama Delto, I wouldn't look at that as a great plan of action. And at Southwest you will make the same top out as the A330 FO and never have to leave the country and your family. Might be ok if you are single, but once you get married and have a family, being that far away would have it's drawbacks.

 

[General Lee]

747-400: 16

777-200LR: 10

777: 8

A330-300: 21

A330-200: 11
U
So it's 66 "Big Airplanes" at Mama Delto, I wouldn't look at that as a great plan of action. And at Southwest you will make the same top out as the A330 FO and never have to leave the country and your family. Might be ok if you are single, but once you get married and have a family, being that far away would have it's drawbacks.

By 2015 the smallest plane we will have (your 717s) will pay $195 an hour for 12 year Capts, and a lot more for everything else bigger, and then a new contract comes up in 2 1/2 years. Things will be moving rapidly, whereas you guys will stagnate due to the young AirTran group coming in. And, most of the retirements will come off of those 66 widebodies,(where's the 767-400? At least 20 of those) which crew more pilots per plane because of the long stage lengths. It's gonna "rain cash and upgrades." (Thanks to 500+ leaving per year and extra Greenslips handed out for lack of crews). You guys will be in a drought, for years. All 3 big legacies will have huge retirements. I bet the bottom half of your list will be looking.

And you forgot the 767-400, which pays the same as the A330 and does only INTL flying, like Heathrow and São Paulo. It's a separate category from the 757/767, paying about $20 more per hour with INTL override.

And of course, you neglected to add the 757/767, which are numerous, and fly all over the world. Those will pay equal to your 737s initially in the contract, and then pass them. Throw in INTL override and higher per diem, and it gets better.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

747-400: 16

777-200LR: 10

777: 8

A330-300: 21

A330-200: 11

So it's 66 "Big Airplanes" at Mama Delto, I wouldn't look at that as a great plan of action. And at Southwest you will make the same top out as the A330 FO and never have to leave the country and your family. Might be ok if you are single, but once you get married and have a family, being that far away would have it's drawbacks.

You forgot the 767/757 category Canyon....

I love International.....I only bid 3 or 4 day trips but if a guy wants to and can hold it, there are 12 days which go pretty senior.

Thanks for the opinion but a bad argument.

 

[say again]

Wow, still the same lame argument over why my flying is better than yours. Personal preference. Some people like staying within the US, while others enjoy the international trips. As for size of the plane...who cares?!?! I fly business jets and love it. Do a combo of both int'l and domestic. Personally, I enjoy the shorter legs versus trans-con/atlantic crossings. BUT, I enjoy my down time seeing the different sights of the world. Trade-off I guess.

 

[General Lee]

Wow, still the same lame argument over why my flying is better than yours. Personal preference. Some people like staying within the US, while others enjoy the international trips. As for size of the plane...who cares?!?! I fly business jets and love it. Do a combo of both int'l and domestic. Personally, I enjoy the shorter legs versus trans-con/atlantic crossings. BUT, I enjoy my down time seeing the different sights of the world. Trade-off I guess.

So, the Legacies ONLY fly INTL? We have plenty of pilots who have NEVER flown INTL routes or widebodies. I talked to a FNWA guy who has spent the last 25 years on the DC9, starting out at Republic, and who is now in the top 10 Captains in DTW on the DC9. But, he has a CHOICE. If he wants to, he can next go to the MD88, or bid the A330 as a Captain. That is the difference. Choice.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

So, the Legacies ONLY fly INTL? We have plenty of pilots who have NEVER flown INTL routes or widebodies. I talked to a FNWA guy who has spent the last 25 years on the DC9, starting out at Republic, and who is now in the top 10 Captains in DTW on the DC9. But, he has a CHOICE. If he wants to, he can next go to the MD88, or bid the A330 as a Captain. That is the difference. Choice.



Bye Bye---General Lee

5 legs a day to PNS and HSV, no thanks.

 

[canyonblue]

It's gonna "rain cash and upgrades."


Bye Bye---General Lee

I heard that enough in 2000 from "Legacy" guys, it doesn't always work out that way. The number one reason I chose SWA was it's balance sheet and the schedules. Rule Number One: You're in the Airline business, there are no sure things. Rule Number Two: Always remember Rule Number One

I bet the bottom half of your list will be looking.

I've seen it before, it didn't work out too well for them now did it?

 

[Crizz]

This discussion is unbecoming of the fine pilots at both Delta and Southwest.