717's to DELTA

[General Lee]

5 legs a day to PNS and HSV, no thanks.

And then bid a different plane, and that.....goes....away...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I heard that enough in 2000 from "Legacy" guys, it doesn't always work out that way. The number one reason I chose SWA was it's balance sheet and the schedules. Rule Number One: You're in the Airline business, there are no sure things. Rule Number Two: Always remember Rule Number One




I've seen it before, it didn't work out too well for them now did it?

Unless age 65 is increased, it is a mathematical certainty, people retiring that is. Whether or not there is growth or downsizing, that can change things no doubt. But just looking at mandatory retirements and the amount of younger AirTran guys coming in to the middle of the SWA list, stagnation does seem plausible for the SWA pilots, unless there is huge growth, which GK is not talking about these days, rather cost cutting.

As far as what happened to SWA guys in 2000 leaving and going to legacies, no, no it didn't work out well for them. I think capacity has shrunk, and the competition has also shrunk, with a total of 3 legacies a good possibility coming up here, helping everyone. The potential to move upward in pay and QOL at those 3 legacies exists thanks to the huge projected retirement numbers, something most LCCs lack. And many junior guys at those LCCs will try to get in on the initial hiring, which could make a big difference in future downturns. Being in the front of a hiring wave is really important.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

By 2015 the smallest plane we will have (your 717s) will pay $195 an hour for 12 year Capts, and a lot more for everything else bigger,

Bye Bye---General Lee

By 2020, the smallest airplane delta will be flying is a 757- bc the -900's are just not efficient, so clearly you'll have to outsource the 717's....
Right, GL?

No, this never does justice to either pilot group- but I've said it before- and again- the "cash and upgrades" disappeared pretty quick as soon as mgmt decided you guys needed a bankruptcy to gut your contract-

But to mitigate that, DALPA pilots voted to outsource more so the cuts weren't as bad-

Sorry, things will always change- but I wouldn't fly for delta for two reasons- you know what kind if opportunistic mgmt you have, and what sellouts you have in your union-

How's this choice GL- I chose not to fly one more leg for a legacy and much prefer a 6 leg day working for swa and Swapa than anything I experienced at my sellout legacy.

You rail on choice- well choices have consequences and the choices both mgmt and DALPA have made would not allow me to look in the mirror-

To each his own though yes voter-

When are those CRJ-1000's going to skywest?

 

[ATLplt]

This discussion is unbecoming of the fine pilots at both Delta and Southwest.

Did you expect something else? It's flightinfo...home of the "unit" measurement society.

Both Delta and Southwest pilots should be happy they are able to sustain an excellent QOL regardless what the name says on the side of the jet. We're all pilots and supposedly professionals. It be nice to support one another, but it's too easy to sling mud around, anonymously, from our keyboards. I wonder if the IT guys from IBM an HP or doctors from different universities lambaste each other like this on industry forums? It's like a high school parking lot Ford vs Chevy debate, but more ridiculous.

 

[texman]

Did you expect something else? It's flightinfo...home of the "unit" measurement society.

Both Delta and Southwest pilots should be happy they are able to sustain an excellent QOL regardless what the name says on the side of the jet. We're all pilots and supposedly professionals. It be nice to support one another, but it's too easy to sling mud around, anonymously, from our keyboards. I wonder if the IT guys from IBM an HP or doctors from different universities lambaste each other like this on industry forums? It's like a high school parking lot Ford vs Chevy debate, but more ridiculous.

No, because the real corporate world is a merit based system that does not have the protection of seniority and M/b. So no one cares. It is all based off performance. Shizz or get of the pot.

 

[B727FA]

Sorry, things will always change- but I wouldn't fly for delta for two reasons- you know what kind if opportunistic mgmt you have, and what sellouts you have in your union-

You could replace "delta" with ANY airline name there...

 

[General Lee]

There may be plenty if pilots thinking about applying or jumping ship from a LCC. These discussions have merrit because it makes people think about choices in career and life. The Corndogs get very defensive because they really enjoyed being "the darlings of the industry" after the fall of the legacies after 9-11. Before 9-11 there were SWA Capts leaving for UAL, which obviously didn't work out well for them. Their recent AT merger has thrown a stick into their "family" attitude, and the lack of retirements there, compared to the remaining legacies, has created stagnation, and many of the junior pilots there may very well be looking for better opportunities. It drives the Corndogs crazy that their once enviable position may be challenged, hence all of their responses. Sure, this industry runs on cycles, but cutting the legacies to just 3 total ensures more stability compared to the past, which is something pilots do want.

Consolidation just might be the key. Throw in huge retirements numbers, and people will be looking. And it is good to discuss differences on this board. I still think SWA is a great airline with great pay. But, the legacies are catching up, and they bring along faster upward movement and variety in planes and routes. When the pay catches up to SWA, that will be tough to ignore for many.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Did you expect something else? It's flightinfo...home of the "unit" measurement society.

Both Delta and Southwest pilots should be happy they are able to sustain an excellent QOL regardless what the name says on the side of the jet. We're all pilots and supposedly professionals. It be nice to support one another, but it's too easy to sling mud around, anonymously, from our keyboards. I wonder if the IT guys from IBM an HP or doctors from different universities lambaste each other like this on industry forums? It's like a high school parking lot Ford vs Chevy debate, but more ridiculous.

I just point out differences. The pay used to be the main difference SWA pilots pointed out, but that is quickly changing. If people are thinking of possibly jumping ship or applying to an airline, they may want to know about differences. Some people may not want to do multiple leg days for 30 years. It might be ok now while at a regional, but not as they grow older. I don't mind keeping it civil, though. I try.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

And then bid a different plane, and that.....goes....away...


Bye Bye---General Lee

I'll just tell that to my 13-year seniority dal neighbor. I doubt he can afford to make $140/hour, however as a 767 FO. At least as a juuuuunior ca, he's making $70 grand a year year less than his counterpart at SWA who can afford to have his wife stay at home.
Have fun working until 75 (your wife hopes).

 

[jonjuan]

Sorry, things will always change- but I wouldn't fly for delta for two reasons- you know what kind if opportunistic mgmt you have, and what sellouts you have in your union-

One comment: I hope you reallly don't believe you are immune to either.

 

[say again]

So, the Legacies ONLY fly INTL? We have plenty of pilots who have NEVER flown INTL routes or widebodies. I talked to a FNWA guy who has spent the last 25 years on the DC9, starting out at Republic, and who is now in the top 10 Captains in DTW on the DC9. But, he has a CHOICE. If he wants to, he can next go to the MD88, or bid the A330 as a Captain. That is the difference. Choice.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Huh? I think you missed the point of what I was saying. I know the legacies do both, that's just ridiculous to say otherwise. My point is that just because you like int'l flying doesn't mean others do. The SWA guys/gals all seem pretty damn happy flying domestically in their 737. Yes I think choice is a great thing, but if you have no choice, then you learn to accept and live with what you have. I think they all knew going in that SWA only has one fleet and flies domestically. One question, do you feel superior because you have a choice of flying int'l or domestic?

 

[waveflyer]

One comment: I hope you reallly don't believe you are immune to either.

No- I'm diligent- but I work my business so that if what could happen does- I can walk-

True integrity means building a life where you can make the right call and not end up on the street-

That said, the culture of swa both with mgmt and the union would have to fall a lot- I continue to feel lucky to have both

 

[humveedriver]

By 2015 the smallest plane we will have (your 717s) will pay $195 an hour for 12 year Capts, and a lot more for everything else bigger, and then a new contract comes up in 2 1/2 years.

That's a good thing. SWA is suppose to be a low cost carrier. So it's good for them to have the competitions cost higher. Fortunetaly, for everyone in the industry SWA was able to increase and maintain narrow body wages, while the legacies went through bankruptcy and lowered wages (with those hedges). So, thank you SWA for holding the line. And thank you Delta for resuming your role of higher salary and costs.

 

[General Lee]

Huh? I think you missed the point of what I was saying. I know the legacies do both, that's just ridiculous to say otherwise. My point is that just because you like int'l flying doesn't mean others do. The SWA guys/gals all seem pretty damn happy flying domestically in their 737. Yes I think choice is a great thing, but if you have no choice, then you learn to accept and live with what you have. I think they all knew going in that SWA only has one fleet and flies domestically. One question, do you feel superior because you have a choice of flying int'l or domestic?

You're right, not everyone likes the INTL flying. Some can't sleep in the rest facility (you will be miserable if that is the case), nor can they sleep 9 time zones away. It isn't for everybody. But, you can always try it out. Even on the 757/767 "ER" Category, I would say 60% of the flying is domestic only trips, so if you try a 8 day Asia trip and can't get accustomed to the time zones, or you don't like the brew or food in Europe (?), then you can bid back to normal 4 day domestic only trips. Or try a Hawaii and a domestic trip. Or do one day turns, etc etc etc. Get the picture. If you are too junior and on reserve and keep getting Lagos, then you can bid the 737 and make sure you never see that place again. Choice, is good. That was my point. Your airline doesn't have that. (just pointing out a fact) That can be good and bad.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

That's a good thing. SWA is suppose to be a low cost carrier. So it's good for them to have the competitions cost higher. Fortunetaly, for everyone in the industry SWA was able to increase and maintain narrow body wages, while the legacies went through bankruptcy and lowered wages (with those hedges). So, thank you SWA for holding the line. And thank you Delta for resuming your role of higher salary and costs.

That is true, but the reason they got to the higher rates was because someone else got their first, and held it until the BK, which was after the SWA contract......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[humveedriver]

That is true, but the reason they got to the higher rates was because someone else got their first, and held it until the BK, which was after the SWA contract......


Bye Bye---General Lee

Yeah, but they did it without big time scope relief. Which is more impressive than what you guys did 11-ish years ago.

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, but they did it without big time scope relief. Which is more impressive than what you guys did 11-ish years ago.

They never had feed or asked for scope relief, it wasn't even in their business plan, especially back then after 9-11. There was never a hub and spoke type plan, with flying to smaller cities that RJs could have done. Not the same at all. They just mirrored the DL rates. I am glad they kept it, which now helps the DL pilots again. And, let's hope they keep it in the future as well. (GK seems to be on a cost rampage as of late)



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[humveedriver]

They never had feed or asked for scope relief, it wasn't even in their business plan, especially back then after 9-11.
Bye Bye---General Lee

Neat concept huh?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

GL.....the elephant in the room behind ya is that now instead of RJ
scope ......we need to worry about Alaska scope.

 

[General Lee]

GL.....the elephant in the room behind ya is that now instead of RJ
scope ......we need to worry about Alaska scope.

I agree, but even AK is growth limited coming up here. They are running out of space on the West Coast,(maybe SAN hub?) their new order doesn't add too many extra planes for growth compared to just replacements. How many more cities can they go nonstop from SEA or PDX? LAX is full.

We do have to watch domestic and INTL scope, you are right about that. No doubt there.


Bye Bye---General Lee