USAir East West NIC Award Resolution? Very soon!

[General Lee]

I hear Judge Silver was going to meet with both sides attorneys on Sep 26th to review her findings, but because it was a major Jewish holiday, it was then bumped to this upcoming Monday. This is it. Would she rule that the Easties could just ignore a binding arbitration award? If so, then everyone could do the same, right? That wouldn't be right, and we all know that. If you sign up for it, you had better be prepared to accept the award. I can't wait to hear what happens! Good luck Westies!



Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

What she's ruling on is whether or not the company has any liability to a hybrid DFR with USAPA if they accept a non-Nicolau list. With the recent developments, Parker probably doesn't care, but the APA will be watching, since they will be the ones deciding whether the Nic is the list used in the US/AA SLI.

My guess is that they will do the safe thing and use the NIC. They have no DFR threat from the east since the arbitration is fair and equitable itself as testified by everyone involved except the Angry F/O's of the east.

For the APA to cuddle up with USAPA would put them in line for endless litigation and everyone who has had any dealing with USAPA knows how pointless it is to negotiate with the untrustworthy, so they will be dismissed. APA will be all about moving forward (like an unchocked steamroller perhaps) but they won't sign up for USAPA's Windmill Brigade.

 

[pave driver]

Hope this all gets put behind us soon. Often views here seem one side must win and the other must lose. I believe the future will improve greatly when we can all finally move on.

 

[General Lee]

Hope this all gets put behind us soon. Often views here seem one side must win and the other must lose. I believe the future will improve greatly when we can all finally move on.

That's great and all, but if you sign up for binding arbitration, you need to accept the award. That's the point.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pave driver]

That's great and all, but if you sign up for binding arbitration, you need to accept the award. That's the point.


Bye Bye---General Lee

It is not great but the future looks great since I believe we will move forward together in the near future. On the other hand, APA's current course will most likely pave our future.

 

[Flybywire44]

I hear Judge Silver was going to meet with both sides attorneys on Sep 26th to review her findings, but because it was a major Jewish holiday, it was then bumped to this upcoming Monday. This is it. Would she rule that the Easties could just ignore a binding arbitration award? If so, then everyone could do the same, right? That wouldn't be right, and we all know that. If you sign up for it, you had better be prepared to accept the award. I can't wait to hear what happens! Good luck Westies!



Bye Bye----General Lee

I believe the declaratory judgment will occur the first Tuesday in October.

This judgement will allow US Airways to establish their liability in continuing to merger East/West/APA without a seniority ruling. This is welcome news for the AMR merger moving forward!

A merged LCC/AMR will be a definite win for East/West regardless of whether or not Nicolai's award is implemented or not.

Hope this all gets put behind us soon. Often views here seem one side must win and the other must lose. I believe the future will improve greatly when we can all finally move on.

Hopefully all pilots at merged-AMR will sense a win-win scenario.

 

[IBNAV8R]

The first assumption is that APA won't "burn the place to the ground" as appears to be the current sentiment.

But, I'm thinking APA pilots aren't going to give up straight DOH. They will insist on the Nic. Since they have the numbers, they will effectively "out-East" the Easties.

 

[pave driver]

APA will stand their ground and strengthen us all in the end. We are not replaceable and the leadership knows this and the bar will be raised for all. Unity is not far away and this too shall pass. We will be one in the near future.

 

[General Lee]

The first assumption is that APA won't "burn the place to the ground" as appears to be the current sentiment.

But, I'm thinking APA pilots aren't going to give up straight DOH. They will insist on the Nic. Since they have the numbers, they will effectively "out-East" the Easties.

The APA probably doesn't want the NIC award either, because more of the Westies are younger on average. That doesn't help the AA guys compared to the old Easties all coming in above them but then retiring in 4 years at age 65. They want older pilots in front of them, not younger ones. So, the APA probably doesn't want the NIC award either, but it is the way to do it since it was an arbitrated award.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[IBNAV8R]

You have a point. It's a choice - fewer, younger guys with adjusted DOH in front or scads of older guys with straight DOH. Sadly, Nic award or not, it will come down to what is good for "me" as opposed what's right.

 

[General Lee]

You have a point. It's a choice - fewer, younger guys with adjusted DOH in front or scads of older guys with straight DOH. Sadly, Nic award or not, it will come down to what is good for "me" as opposed what's right.

That's great, but the judge will likely remind Parker that he agreed to the arbitrated list, (hence no deal with USAPA since) and he probably won't do any deal until that is in place, or get sued. So, at least you can look yourself in the mirror and be proud that you at least "did the right thing." Oh wait, Nevermind.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[dollacrackho]

When is judge silver supposed to rule on this?

 

[The Drizzle]

When is judge silver supposed to rule on this?

Last June.

 

[Turtle21]

Word is it didn't go well for...

 

[Superbird]

Word is it didn't go well for...

Anybody.

Back to pre-dec judgment.

 

[Turtle21]

Anybody.

Back to pre-dec judgment.

"USAPA is free to bargain as they see fit."

 

[General Lee]

"USAPA is free to bargain as they see fit."

But, as soon as you try to implement a new seniority list, then the Westies are free to sue, and they will. The NIC award will follow you forever.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

But, as soon as you try to implement a new seniority list, then the Westies are free to sue, and they will. The NIC award will follow you forever.


Bye Bye--General Lee

"Wide range of reasonableness" <---SCOTUS standard of fair representation.

 

[General Lee]

"Wide range of reasonableness" <---SCOTUS standard of fair representation.

Thanks, you can negotiate for a new contract, but as soon as your submit a different list other than the NIC award (to the APA or some arbitrator for another SLI), you will be sued. The NIC award was not discarded. Have fun with substandard pay Judge Judy!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

"Wide range of reasonableness" <---SCOTUS standard of fair representation.

Essentially. Any plan that reasonably passes the sniff test by an outsider will probably pass muster. That could be anything from DOH to straight relative seniority, plus any conditions and restrictions.

Two court rulings have now shown that this is an internal union issue, and that they have rather wide latitude to resolve as they see fit.

Will someone sue? definitely, but what this has done is set the bar rather high for any suit to succeed. Under the SCOTUS interpretation, just sitting in the seat you had might be considered reasonable, without ANY regard to anything else.

Besides, the East side has already "won", in a manner of speaking. They've gotten essentially a 5 year fence that's lasted this long, and is bound to continue, at least for the short term.

Even coming to a different SLI solution won't help at this point, because SOMEONE will sue over it, and thus delaying any integration for another 24-36 months.

Since no bump no flush continues to be the one constant, it is very unlikely that anyone on the East side will get displaced by any SLI as they move into positions that are vacated by the East's large wave of retirees. It is VERY unlikely that a judge anywhere is going to displace current seat holders...there simply is no precedent for it.

Really the only thing left is to cut a deal, gain SOMETHING out of the SLI and a pay raise, and quit swinging for the stands. Otherwise the East will still have their "fence", which, really, is all they wanted in the first place.

Nu

 

[Bringupthebird]

USAPA never intended to negotiate a contract in good faith to produce the document that would implement the NIC. This ruling merely allows them to continue to stay the course (which has been down the tubes thus far). No case has been heard to decide whether or not the NIC is binding on USAPA because there is no penalty for "intent to fail to represent".

Frankly, the pilots east and west are getting what they deserve for failing to press hard for the elimination of USAPA and it's DOH requirement. No one has tried to get the cards out for a representation vote.

Behold the power of inertia!

 

[ALGFLYR]

But, as soon as you try to implement a new seniority list, then the Westies are free to sue, and they will. The NIC award will follow you forever.


Bye Bye--General Lee

And if we merge and become APA... Who are they gonna sue???

 

[ableone]

And if we merge and become APA... Who are they gonna sue???

You miss the entire point of the court case.

The company was asking the court to provide them with a clear cut answer so they don't have to be the bad guy.

They wanted the court to say either;

1. You are not a party to the transition agreement that you signed earlier and are immune to liability should you discard an arbitrated award. This would allow the company to negotiate with USAPA without fear of losing an otherwise strong case filed by the west pilots.

or

2. You absolutely can not deviate from the arbitrated award. In which case they could go to USAPA and say; "Hey we would like to negotiate with you but our hands are tied..."

The court has essentially said "The 9th circuit said the courts can't step in and make a decision until after an agreement (contract) is ratified in which case the interested parties can come back to court and sue on the merits. (Addington)

The court punted so the company's ass is still out in the breeze.

Next step - The company will appeal Judge Silver's opinion to the 9th circuit.

Long story short, the answer to your question is it's the company who will be sued, which is why this was on Judge Silver's desk.

 

[General Lee]

And if we merge and become APA... Who are they gonna sue???

USAPA? A seniority merger won't go into affect until an SOC, single operating certificate, which UAL still doesn't have after 2 years. I would think that might be enough time to sue someone, right? If a different seniority list is submitted, then it could happen, and USAPA would have to submit one to an arbitrator to get the process rolling.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

And if we merge and become APA... Who are they gonna sue???

USAPA and APA agree to LOS with APA, and fences to protect APA 777s and 747s. No arbitration needed, the companies make a rush deal to get the merger done, and everyone can move on, including everyone that wants to sue about DOH or NIC, whatever.. knock yourselves out. Don't forget to include ALPA as a defendant. They are at fault for something, always..

 

[Bringupthebird]

APA sends USAPA an e-mail telling them what they decided to do. That's the extent to which APA will negotiate with USAPA. Maybe they'll use a Hummel hand puppet.

 

[ALGFLYR]

I just got to my overnight and logged on and saw a thread that said "the Nic is dead"... I tried to read the thread but it wouldn't let me... I log out and back on and it's gone! Really? Where did that thread go??? What was said today in court??

 

[ewrord]

USAPA? A seniority merger won't go into affect until an SOC, single operating certificate, which UAL still doesn't have after 2 years. I would think that might be enough time to sue someone, right? If a different seniority list is submitted, then it could happen, and USAPA would have to submit one to an arbitrator to get the process rolling.


Bye Bye---General Lee

UAL received their Single Operating Certificate November 30, 2011. They don't yet have a single seniority list (SSL). Two separate things, SOC is granted by FAA, SSL is negotiated by the unions.

 

[Turtle21]

I just got to my overnight and logged on and saw a thread that said "the Nic is dead"... I tried to read the thread but it wouldn't let me... I log out and back on and it's gone! Really? Where did that thread go??? What was said today in court??

2 Oct 2012 USAPA Communications Committee

PHX Declaratory Judgment Proposed Decision

Oral argument in the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment case was held earlier today (October 2, 2012) in Phoenix. Judge Silver distributed a proposed decision that, if it becomes final, will grant summary judgment to USAPA, holding that USAPA is free to pursue any seniority proposal, and need not advance the Nicolau award. The proposed decision is not appropriate for distribution until it becomes final because there may be changes.

The argument lasted for more than an hour and included counsel for US Airways, the West Pilot Class and USAPA. Counsel for US Airways and the West Pilot Class argued that the decision should be changed in various respects. Counsel for USAPA reiterated that USAPA was prepared to engage in serious, genuine discussions with the West Pilots over the seniority proposal, and was hopeful the parties would continue to work together to achieve a new comprehensive collective bargaining agreement.

The argument was attended by more than 100 pilots including President Gary Hummel, Secretary-Treasurer Rob Streble and Executive Vice President Steve Smyser. President Hummel stated, “USAPA stands ready to negotiate a contract for all of our 5000 pilots, whether through a merger or otherwise. We are long overdue a contract that brings us up to par with our peers at other airlines such as Delta and United. Now that this obstacle has been removed, we will immediately petition the National Mediation Board to resume section 6 contract negotiations.

The final Order and the transcript of the argument will be posted as soon as they become available.

USAPA Communications

 

[General Lee]

You miss the entire point of the court case.

The company was asking the court to provide them with a clear cut answer so they don't have to be the bad guy.

They wanted the court to say either;

1. You are not a party to the transition agreement that you signed earlier and are immune to liability should you discard an arbitrated award. This would allow the company to negotiate with USAPA without fear of losing an otherwise strong case filed by the west pilots.

or

2. You absolutely can not deviate from the arbitrated award. In which case they could go to USAPA and say; "Hey we would like to negotiate with you but our hands are tied..."

The court has essentially said "The 9th circuit said the courts can't step in and make a decision until after an agreement (contract) is ratified in which case the interested parties can come back to court and sue on the merits. (Addington)

The court punted so the company's ass is still out in the breeze.

Next step - The company will appeal Judge Silver's opinion to the 9th circuit.

Long story short, the answer to your question is it's the company who will be sued, which is why this was on Judge Silver's desk.

Now THAT was a good explanation. Bravo! The low wages will continue until the company finds out if IT could get sued.



Bye Bye----General Lee