So..the pilot shortage is coming?

[fam62c]

Then why don't FedEx pilots make $2M a year, when their companies are 20 times as profitable as airlines. Think there might be more to it than affordability?

Seniority compromises the free hand of labor-
We do not get paid a market wage, we get paid a negotiated, highly political wage artificially skewed by the constraints of the RLA & NMB

That has given us inflated wages before, and it has given us pay well below market in the post 9/11 world.

By definition, if you are being paid "well below market" you should be able to leave your flying job and get a better paying flying job........can you do that now? A free market is where supply and demand determine price. Right now there is a sufficient supply of airline pilots in the USA. You are always free to leave your job and get a better one if it's available, the RLA and NMB can't prevent you from doing that.

 

[pilotyip]

True statement.

Not that what Bubba said is incorrect at all, some good stuff in there too, but the fact is that MANY unionized workers in different fields, albeit what we would consider "blue collar" (electrical workers, etc) ARE nationally unionized and carry their seniority and longevity with them if they decide to move to another job across the country.

That would be the first real step towards fixing our system as pilots but I also agree that management would never go for it - Southwest is an excellent example, hiring when no one else was several years ago. If a national system had allowed pilots from a Legacy carrier on furlough to take those jobs, they would have come in at year 3, 4, 6 longevity, thus killing a large part of the financial advantage of hiring new-hires for management.

For that reason alone, managements at airlines would fight such a move tooth-and-nail, not to mention unions themselves fighting it with the risk of pilots coming in super-senior moving everyone down the list.

Just isn't going to happen, sad to say. I think the benefits would outweigh the risks for us as pilots, but you'd never get everyone on the same page long enough to get it done. In that respect, our Blue Collar unionized brothers are smarter than we are...

Sad, but true.

How would this national union, single national list handle a start up with only first year wages like Virgin? Would all pilots represented by one union, no more APA, IBT, or others? This would increase cost, becasue all airliens would be mature airlines and tickets prices would rise chasing any leisure travlers, resultuing in fewer jobs, but this not be a problem just liek today if the senior guys kept their job.
BTW I can hire union electrician for a week job, unlike an airline pilot who has to go months of expensive training before they make a dime for the company. The electrician union takes care of all training. Would this new national pilot's union run and pay for all training for the union members?

By definition, if you are being paid "well below market" you should be able to leave your flying job and get a better paying flying job........can you do that now? A free market is where supply and demand determine price. Right now there is a sufficient supply of airline pilots in the USA. You are always free to leave your job and get a better one if it's available, the RLA and NMB can't prevent you from doing that.

This guy gets it

 

[livin'thesim]

As I have argued before, the single element that traps pilots in substandard companies is steeply scaled hourly rates.

Many pilots would bail from a bad job to a better one, and even give up seniority as long as they would make a similar amount.

Yes, being bottom reserve stinks, but many would make that trade. But taking a 60% pay cut to switch carriers is too much for many to bear. This, more than anything is what gives management leverage over the pilots.

Single seniority list? An interesting idea, with positives and negatives, but it will probably never happen.

Single pilot scale for all carriers, whether government-mandated or ALPA-mandated? Another idea that has plus and minus, but also very, very unlikely to happen.

An ALPA policy of reducing the difference between bottom scale and top scale pay?
Doable. Can be implemented one airline at a time. Does not need all-at-once implementation to begin showing benefits.

Would it be as effective as the other ideas? I doubt it, but since those will never happen, reducing the steep wage scales is about the only tool I see that is a new and different element to the pilot pay market.

Otherwise it will be as it is now, and likely not much will ever change.

 

[Turtle21]

As I have argued before, the single element that traps pilots in substandard companies is steeply scaled hourly rates.

Many pilots would bail from a bad job to a better one, and even give up seniority as long as they would make a similar amount.

Yes, being bottom reserve stinks, but many would make that trade. But taking a 60% pay cut to switch carriers is too much for many to bear. This, more than anything is what gives management leverage over the pilots.

Single seniority list? An interesting idea, with positives and negatives, but it will probably never happen.

Single pilot scale for all carriers, whether government-mandated or ALPA-mandated? Another idea that has plus and minus, but also very, very unlikely to happen.

An ALPA policy of reducing the difference between bottom scale and top scale pay?
Doable. Can be implemented one airline at a time. Does not need all-at-once implementation to begin showing benefits.

Would it be as effective as the other ideas? I doubt it, but since those will never happen, reducing the steep wage scales is about the only tool I see that is a new and different element to the pilot pay market.

Otherwise it will be as it is now, and likely not much will ever change.

Excellent point about steeply scaled pay rates.

The union/mgt collusion is anything but a free market. ALPA has sold the young pilots in order to achieve the high pay disparity that advantages the top pilots at major carriers. The seniority system inhibits a free market valuation of pilots.

It is what it is.. a big-dogs-eat-little-dogs game where the people you pay dues to and the ones you work for get to make the rules while eating caviar, brie, and cherries jubilee, compliments of you and your labor buddies.

 

[fam62c]

Excellent point about steeply scaled pay rates.

The union/mgt collusion is anything but a free market. ALPA has sold the young pilots in order to achieve the high pay disparity that advantages the top pilots at major carriers. The seniority system inhibits a free market valuation of pilots.

It is what it is.. a big-dogs-eat-little-dogs game where the people you pay dues to and the ones you work for get to make the rules while eating caviar, brie, and cherries jubilee, compliments of you and your labor buddies.

You could actually argue that the opposite is true. The seniority system is the only thing that prevents major airlines from starting at the top when layoffs happen and getting rid of the highest paid employees first. It also results in the employees with the most longevity being promoted to the highest paying position. The elimination of the seniority system would be management's wildest dream come true, they could promote the pilots with the least longevity to CA positions to save money and get rid of the most senior (expensive) employees during downsizing. In a free market there will always be winners and losers but at least with a seniority system it's not totally arbitrary.

The only thing worse than the seniority system for us would be any other system If you have a better idea that most pilots would go along with and companies would be wiling to implement we would all love to hear it.

 

[waveflyer]

By definition, if you are being paid "well below market" you should be able to leave your flying job and get a better paying flying job........can you do that now? A free market is where supply and demand determine price. Right now there is a sufficient supply of airline pilots in the USA. You are always free to leave your job and get a better one if it's available, the RLA and NMB can't prevent you from doing that.

Try and keep up.

Am I free to quit and get a better offer? Yes? Will I get a better offer bc every airline operates on the company seniority system? No.

Which is my entire point. .....again

To start arguing supply and demand when so many other factors delay its effect borders on the ridiculous. Are you guys even airline pilots?

You do understand how we negotiate right? Im pretty sure none of you have operated without the constraints of the RLA since it was created in 1926

 

[waveflyer]

I'm not arguing against seniority, it solves more problems than it creates.
But when it's the reality, realize its full effect and get behind your union.

And work at upping first year pay at your airline so that a somewhat reasonable wage can be had if pilots ever did need to jump off a sinking ship.

How many airlines did pilots bail out post 9/11, all bc mgmt knew that we'd all sacrifice out left nut before starting over anywhere else?

 

[pilotyip]

I'm not arguing against seniority, it solves more problems than it creates.

Even I think the senority system is the best thing for pilots. Yea wouldn't everyone love it with a national senoirty system, you are 4 numbers away from a CA bid at ABC airlines, and XYZ airline goes out of business now the next 175 CA slots go to the pilots from XYZ airline

 

[fam62c]

Try and keep up.

Am I free to quit and get a better offer? Yes? Will I get a better offer bc every airline operates on the company seniority system? No.

Which is my entire point. .....again

To start arguing supply and demand when so many other factors delay its effect borders on the ridiculous. Are you guys even airline pilots?

You do understand how we negotiate right? Im pretty sure none of you have operated without the constraints of the RLA since it was created in 1926

You either have a seniority system or you don't, there is no in-between, it comes with it's advantages and disadvantages one of which is a penalty for starting over. You are still free to leave your job and start over if a better position is available. I'm guessing that SW wasn't your first flying job and you left somewhere else to get there. You started over at the bottom because it was a much better job in the long run even though you might have had to go backward in some areas for the short term.

Also, supply and demand still ultimately determines wages in this industry. Regional pay tends to be low and first year pay at the majors is low because plenty of people are willing to take the jobs at those levels...why would a company choose to pay more? There are some constraints to supply and demand in this industry, some of them work against us and some of them work in our favor. In the end a labor surplus will still produce lower compensation while a tight market will produce higher compensation, especially at the entry level of the career.

BTW, stop with the "try and keep up" and "are you guys even airline pilots" and "you do understand how we negotiate right?" stuff. Good discussion doesn't require flippant little sarcastic remarks like that, it lowers your credibility and takes away from your point.

 

[livin'thesim]

I'm not arguing against seniority, it solves more problems than it creates.
But when it's the reality, realize its full effect and get behind your union.

Absolutely correct. There is an old saying "the perfect is the enemy of the good". (Voltaire?)

The focus is often on the problems of seniority without considering that there are few workable alternatives. Seniority is probably the best of a bunch of imperfect solutions.

In other career fields, it is expected that certain people will excel above the rest and be promoted into management or supervisory roles.

In the cockpit, the ultimate supervisory role is that of Captain, and it is probably more important to have many very good Captains than it is to have really, really good management pilots. Therefore, the "point of excellence" is further down the corporate ladder than it may be in other industries. A bad Captain can kill or injure people in a more immediate sense than a bad Chief Pilot (though management is still important).

The problem is that flight crews' primary purpose is safety, with profitability second. Therefore, we SHOULD NOT want to see large differences in job performance. We should not want individual pilots to excel.

We should want the whole group to excel. This leaves seniority as one of the few workable solutions. This also prevents pilots from compromising safety in order to increase profitability. If advancement depended on good economic performance from pilots, some would take chances to complete flights. Pilots should be viewed like judges - we should be able to issue our rulings on safe flight operations without fear of reprisal.

It is management's job to make us profitable. Pilot unions and seniority provide a 'separation of church and state', which allows us to put safety first.

And work at upping first year pay at your airline so that a somewhat reasonable wage can be had if pilots ever did need to jump off a sinking ship.

Yes. And the next logical choice is to pursue a less-steep scale between the low end and high end of the scales. The current system means that the senior pilots are trapped, and the junior pilots are poor.

How many airlines did pilots bail out post 9/11, all bc mgmt knew that we'd all sacrifice out left nut before starting over anywhere else?

I enjoy a good debate about integrating all ALPA pilots on one list as much as the next guy. I also enjoy debating whether seniority is the best system, and all of the other interesting aspects of the pilot labor market.

But those are parlor discussions to be had over a nice whiskey with other pilots.

The ship has sailed long ago on many of those options, so instead we need to focus on changes that have a realistic chance of implementation.

And any changes have to be of the sort that can be implemented in phases. Universal seniority would require an all-at-once overhaul of multiple airline contracts. Not realistic.

I know that everyone is very frustrated and many want to have one big fix that makes up for all the lost time and pay we have suffered.

But this is like buying lottery tickets, the payoff is big, but the odds are slim.

There is a term call sunk costs, and this concept explains why so many pilots desire hail-mary solutions.

As grown adults, however, we need to understand that WE LET MANAGEMENT DO THIS TO US.

IT IS OUR OWN FAULT for not being unified both locally and nationally as pilots.

We must accept the sunk costs and losses as irrecoverable, and build a new system for ourselves that protects our careers and incomes.

We need to own the fact that:
1) Many of us allowed ourselves to be duped by management
2) Many senior pilots sold out the junior (scope, b-scales)
3) Shiny jet syndrome. 'nuff said
4) The medical profession and the legal profession take ownership of the education and certification of new entrants to their field. We allow fly-by-night "academies" to dilute the labor supply.


These are just a few of the sins professional pilots have committed against their own profession.

Unless and until we are willing to deal with our own failings, our whining about what "management is doing to us" is useless.

 

[livin'thesim]

BTW, stop with the "try and keep up" and "are you guys even airline pilots" and "you do understand how we negotiate right?" stuff. Good discussion doesn't require flippant little sarcastic remarks like that, it lowers your credibility and takes away from your point.

Yep...

 

[Lear70]

Absolutely correct. There is an old saying "the perfect is the enemy of the good". (Voltaire?)

Francois-Marie Arouet, pen name Voltaire, mid-1700's. My favorite quote regarding dealing with management:

"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."

The problem is that flight crews' primary purpose is safety, with profitability second. Therefore, we SHOULD NOT want to see large differences in job performance. We should not want individual pilots to excel.

We should want the whole group to excel. This leaves seniority as one of the few workable solutions.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. Pilots either excel or not, each according to their talents AND willingness to work to remain highly proficient. One or the other isn't good enough, it takes both. Otherwise, they suck, and no amount of "seniority leveling the playing field" fixes that.

Nothing more painful than to sit in the right seat watching the doofus on your left do something stupid for the third time that trip, but not enough to compromise safety and having to do something about it, but rather having to just sit there and watch them make everything worse.

The seniority system may fix a lot of issues with our employment, but make no mistake, it does nothing to fix proficiency and ability.

As grown adults, however, we need to understand that WE LET MANAGEMENT DO THIS TO US.

IT IS OUR OWN FAULT for not being unified both locally and nationally as pilots.

We must accept the sunk costs and losses as irrecoverable, and build a new system for ourselves that protects our careers and incomes.

We need to own the fact that:
1) Many of us allowed ourselves to be duped by management
2) Many senior pilots sold out the junior (scope, b-scales)
3) Shiny jet syndrome. 'nuff said
4) The medical profession and the legal profession take ownership of the education and certification of new entrants to their field. We allow fly-by-night "academies" to dilute the labor supply.

These are just a few of the sins professional pilots have committed against their own profession.

Unless and until we are willing to deal with our own failings, our whining about what "management is doing to us" is useless.

Well-said.

 

[labbats]

I agree with the point of raising first year pay. I think we'd have a lot easier transition from one company to another with proper first year pay and all these seniority concerns would be much less of an issue.

Why on earth do we have to start at such low first year wages at the major level? I've never understood it. We've moved on from the military or spent years at a regional and paid our dues already.

With all the contracts being negotiated or about to be negotiated this will hopefully be addressed.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Why on earth do we have to start at such low first year wages at the major level? I've never understood it. We've moved on from the military or spent years at a regional and paid our dues already..

I never understood this either, some companies don't even pay for the hotel during training, those are things that you don't see in airlines in other countries. Also the disparity between captain and F/O salary is greater here in the US than in many of the other so called first world countries.

 

[Lear70]

Because the senior eat their young...

 

[KNOTS]

The senior do eat their young... also, a lame excuse I've heard is "that's how it always was" and another gem: "Its to recoup the cost of training a new-hire" as if that justifies the low pay.

 

[waveflyer]

Good post livin the sim- I agree 100% with flattening the earning curve- that would solve a lot of our issues without diluting seniority earned.

 

[livin'thesim]

The senior do eat their young... also, a lame excuse I've heard is "that's how it always was" and another gem: "Its to recoup the cost of training a new-hire" as if that justifies the low pay.

I would be willing to concede first-year pay to be low because of the probationary aspect, but second year through top of scale should be very small change.

Reducing the scale difference also gives pilot groups more leverage, since mgmt knows that more senior pilots at least have the option of quitting and moving on.

 

[pilotyip]

and the airlines have lost a combined $!1B+ in the first half of the year, where is all this money going to come from to give pilots all this money?

 

[jonjuan]

and the airlines have lost a combined $!1B+ in the first half of the year, where is all this money going to come from to give pilots all this money?

From 2nd half profits. Just watch and learn, pops.