So what are United's new proposed rates?

[fam62c]

DAL borrowed $600M, put it in escrow, to be paid to pilots upon completion of contract/SLI. $400M is pennies to these companies.

We'll see, 400M is more than a typical quarterly profit during good times even for a large airline, it's certainly not pennies especially when added to the other costs that come with an improved labor agreement. Retro pay is very tough to get because it's a big chunk of money all at once but who knows, maybe it will different in this case.

 

[densoo]

Retro pay is very tough to get because it's a big chunk of money all at once but who knows, maybe it will different in this case.

They can afford but I agree with you--we won't get it.

 

[bluechunks]

$400M is pennies to these companies.

Bingo.

UCH currently has more CASH/SHORT TERM INVESTMENTS ($7.8B) on hand than DAL ($3.9B) and SWA ($3.7B) combined. Of course, cash is not the problem. The problem is the fight over money and it's always ultimately a fight over money.

 

[Freebrd]

There is one part that is not included in this rumor, and that is the "100 seat" growth that Delta got (88 717s). At least there was a carrot with growth with the 717s, which are coming and are tied in with the incoming 70 76 seat RJs. (no RJs if no 717s).Bye Bye---General Lee

hopefully UCal won't sellout scope for dollars like this putz has

 

[fam62c]

Bingo.

UCH currently has more CASH/SHORT TERM INVESTMENTS ($7.8B) on hand than DAL ($3.9B) and SWA ($3.7B) combined. Of course, cash is not the problem. The problem is the fight over money and it's always ultimately a fight over money.

Now look at the rest of the balance sheet, look at current liabilities and the relationship with the current assets you mentioned (current ratio). Your cash comparison between companies needs context, the current assets alone mean nothing. Look at how much cash AMR had when they filed Chapter 11. 400M is 400M, it ain't chicken feed even to UAL.

 

[EL10]

400 mil is possible if and only if, we get COLA after the future amendable date. That is the only true way to capture all cash and more importantly force them to come to the table more timely next time.

 

[fam62c]

400 mil is possible if and only if, we get COLA after the future amendable date. That is the only true way to capture all cash and more importantly force them to come to the table more timely next time.

That's a good idea, continuation of the wage scale beyond the traditional "last raise" into the amendable period would be a great thing because it takes so long to get a new deal. Also, in a way, it solves part of the retro pay problem the next time around. The farther the wage scales get behind during the negotiating process the harder it is to get the next deal done.

In an ideal world the contract would be an evolutionary document where the company and union could bring it up to date through modification and extensions periodically to avoid the big, dramatic Section 6 negotiations where there are many, many issues all open at once. It's tough to have a working relationship between management and labor that is strong enough to make this work but the concept makes a lot of sense.

 

[whymeworry?]

Full retro pay or likely anything near it is a dream that will never come true, the amount is simply too large and it has to come out of cash. It's not going to happen, I'm not aware of any lengthy negotiation where anybody got anything near full retro pay value recently. If you want to wait to get what you think you deserve you will wait for a very long time and you will still not get it in the end. I'm not saying vote yes on a really terrible deal but you have to compare any proposed deal to what you have now, in the end that's the only comparison that really matters. Without a deal your gains are zero and likely to remain that way for a long time. Anyway, good luck, I hope the TA is a decent one and if not I hope you have the leverage to force a better one to surface.

The company has over $10 billion in cash, almost $4 billion of which was accumulated as a result of pilot concessions over the past 9/7.5 years (9 for UAL/7.5 for CAL). The money is there, it always has been. It's up to us to get it back. Only a strike will produce it. Some think we will never get released. But says who? That's like saying the US will never win the war on terror. You never know until you try. Saying it won't work is the lamest excuse in the first place. I will admit most pilots seem defeated and want to give up early but that doesn't change the fact that the money is there for retro, nor does it change the fact that we will have to shut the airline down to get it. FWIW, everyone I fly with is ready to walk and start over. If this AIP/ TA does pass, IMO, it will begin the next cycle in the long drawn-out path of regression in this profession. It will also likely spell the beginning of the end of UAL. I'd give it 10 yrs before we start down the path of Braniff/ Pan-Am. You can't continue to kick labor in the face and expect results. Our customers are furious over our product of late. They loathe UAL. Meanwhile DAL, HAL, and all the gold-standard global carriers are poaching our top-tier customer base.

Our CEO thinks he can fix the problem by just "getting through the summer", due to our critical staffing levels, and by adding Wifi, layflat seats and giving away FC for free. But when the competition starts offering the same product, has 26 yr old FAs and flys brand new aircraft, what makes you different? Service is the answer there. If Jeff continues to believe he can pummel his service organization then this merger is DOA. It's failing already.

As far as a strike, you can't do s sickout any more. You can't do a slow-down/ work-to-rule campaign, you can't just walk away and start over at the bottom of a seniority list, and you can't force the company to negotiate fairly. Therefore, the only tool a professional pilot has left is the strike (aka: getting released). So there really isn't any other alternative. The company will NEVER be fair in negotiations so a strike is the inevitable outcome IF we are to restore this profession.

To accept anything less than FULL retro is simply rewarding management for their delay tactics in negotiations over the past 4 years (yes, we've been negotiating that long). The $400 million is a signing bonus, as an equivalent offset to the DAL $399.5 equity stake. If rumors are true about this AIP (they came directly from the LAX reps, so I believe the accuracy), then we are getting NO RETRO. Not even a dollar. We have to at least get what DAL got (plus interest) because all along management has compared us to DAL at every turn and twist in negotiations. So if that's the platform from which they want to get a deal then we get everything the DAL pilots got. Hence the $400 mil is just a signing bonus/ equity stake for the merger. If we allow the company to get away with paying no retro God help us all in the profession. It will set the stage for years of delayed negotiations for everyone but SWA and maybe FDX. It basically tells inept managements that the NMB is a paper tiger and delaying a pilot contract by 4+ years will save the company $2 billion over that time and the pilots will never be able to lay claim to that amount.

 

[PCL_128]

If you think the NMB is going to release you over the issue of full retro pay, then you're smoking something good!

 

[list2002]

Maybe, but better than lying on your back and peeing on yourself.

 

[list2002]

BTW, I brought up having an annual raise after the contract expires due to COL in the next contract to a union rep and they said RLA wont allow it. Any truth to that?

 

[PCL_128]

BTW, I brought up having an annual raise after the contract expires due to COL in the next contract to a union rep and they said RLA wont allow it. Any truth to that?

No, no truth to it. Mesaba had it in their last agreement, as did Netjets. It's incredibly difficult to achieve, though. The NMB isn't very sympathetic to it, because they view it as a disincentive for the union to bargain in good faith at the end of the agreement.

 

[Green]

whereas management always bargains in good faith at the expiration of a contract..lol Just another example of how the deck is always stacked against labor.

 

[206amphib]

Is it a seeing eye pony?

 

[fam62c]

BTW, I brought up having an annual raise after the contract expires due to COL in the next contract to a union rep and they said RLA wont allow it. Any truth to that?

The NMB doesn't determine the content of a contract except in an arbitration scenario.

 

[Whataburger]

4 legged mule or Kawasawki?

 

[PCL_128]

The NMB doesn't determine the content of a contract except in an arbitration scenario.

Technically speaking, that's true. But from a practical standpoint, not really. The NMB has their own ideas of what is "reasonable," which they largely base on current industry trends. If a similar carrier just got $200/hr for an aircraft type, and you go into negotiations demanding $300/hr, then they aren't going to view you as reasonable. And since they control the meeting schedule, self-help, and parking, their opinions of what is reasonable are important. Being unreasonable will lead you to getting parked, or just spending an eternity in negotiations not getting anywhere. Conversely, management being unreasonable will first result in an impossible meeting schedule that places a strain on management being able to run the company while also participating in negotiations, and eventually leads to self-help (when it's not an election season, of course). So in a round-about way, the NMB does have some influence on what ends up in a contract.

 

[xjhawk]

I like how you are all talking about back pay being so important. I am at a regional and during that time I was here for negotiations for a contract(MEC and ALPA said full back pay was impossible to get-accept a signing bonus and call it even), a sham bankruptcy orchistrated by NWA, a merger negotiations where my seniority at my company got us a whopping 1/2 our seniority and no gains in pay or work rules (and worse reserve rules). Seeing Delta's contract, I hope you guys get that plus more, plus your back pay. Here is another point-dont get such a great deal where it will just allow the company into bankruptcy and take away your gains. I also hate to semi quote the General LEe-but keeping the company profitable is best for all involved.

*hopes you get the best deal because me and a lot of others like me want to join you there.

 

[nimtz]

Here is another point-dont get such a great deal where it will just allow the company into bankruptcy and take away your gains. I also hate to semi quote the General LEe-but keeping the company profitable is best for all involved.

*hopes you get the best deal because me and a lot of others like me want to join you there.

Don't worry ALPA is there to help! Unzipping the scope fly as preferred by Grand Admiral Moak will surely keep the company far from BK. Somebody has gotta help management get rid of all those pesky tiny jets that they loaded up on with no care for the future.

 

[HelloNewman]

Don't worry ALPA is there to help! Unzipping the scope fly as preferred by Grand Admiral Moak will surely keep the company far from BK. Somebody has gotta help management get rid of all those pesky tiny jets that they loaded up on with no care for the future.

So just wondering do you really expect to keep our scope without any concessions? I have no idea what is in the AIP(no one does), I can almost guarantee that we will not keep our scope. We need to stop being idealistic and be more realistic