No AVtrip at Signature after 1/1/2012 !

[glasspilot]

The "kick back" isn't even the major facet of the unethical claim. The Atlantic bucks don't just give money back for fuel bought, they change the fueling strategy of crews. That's why they give double for top offs. They want you to top off when you otherwise wouldn't.

If you fail to see this then you're a fool.

 

[NoJoy]

Having an extra $300-$400 dollars in your pocket at the end of the year is usually a good thing. Hell if the extra $ is offensive you could just give it away to the rampers that work at Atlantic! They would appreciate it-

 

[jonjuan]

You are essentially taking a "kickback" on your fuel purchase. I am sure if you asked every CFO in the country what would you rather have, a .05/gal discount, or give your pilot a $5 certificate, for every 100 gals, 9.9 out of 10 will take the fuel discount.

If it is ok with your company, I say go for it. Just do not be surprised if a bean counter sees it diferently.

If you want to have some grins, just go tell the CFO how Atlantic gives pilots $5 certificates.

And Hilton gives points and miles as does Hertz, AA, Marriott, UAL, etc. It's called a loyalty program.

 

[G100driver]

Big difference. You are chosing how to spend the companies money with your fuel purchase. Hotel/rental car/airline loyalty programs quite a bit different.

I think that glasspilot gave another excellent example of how Atlantic bucks can justify un-needed fuel purchases.

Just ask how many purchasing managers have lost their jobs by taking a kick backs from venders.

 

[landlover]

Big difference. You are chosing how to spend the companies money with your fuel purchase. Hotel/rental car/airline loyalty programs quite a bit different.

I think that glasspilot gave another excellent example of how Atlantic bucks can justify un-needed fuel purchases.

Just ask how many purchasing managers have lost their jobs by taking a kick backs from venders.

Well if you see Hilton points different than Atlantic points that is your delusional view. I'm sure everyone has seen guys go out of there way just to stay a specific hotel chain. For some reason you confuse a rewards program with a lame duck employee that is greedy. By the way Hilton & Marriott also run these specials where if you stay more you get bonus points. I think your energy should be focused on finding a better employee then thinking rewards programs are unethical. These 2 iPads I bought this year on atlantic rewards are a huge pain in the ass. Wish someone would take them off my hands. And we only top off when it's necessary.

 

[gret]

Big difference. You are chosing how to spend the companies money with your fuel purchase. Hotel/rental car/airline loyalty programs quite a bit different.

I think that glasspilot gave another excellent example of how Atlantic bucks can justify un-needed fuel purchases.

Just ask how many purchasing managers have lost their jobs by taking a kick backs from venders.

100% correct. If the a/c owner knew that Atlantic was handing out the dough, they would kill it immediately.

Would you let you chief of mtx take cash for getting an inspection or overall performed at a particluar facility? No.

 

[G100driver]

I really do not care what you do. You are probably an ethical guy, but that is just a guess.

I am just letting you all know that CFO's might see this a bit differently. What many see is CASH. That is their world.

Well if you see Hilton points different than Atlantic points that is your delusional view. I'm sure everyone has seen guys go out of there way just to stay a specific hotel chain. For some reason you confuse a rewards program with a lame duck employee that is greedy. By the way Hilton & Marriott also run these specials where if you stay more you get bonus points. I think your energy should be focused on finding a better employee then thinking rewards programs are unethical. These 2 iPads I bought this year on atlantic rewards are a huge pain in the ass. Wish someone would take them off my hands. And we only top off when it's necessary.

 

[gret]

kick·back

noun

1. a percentage of income given to a person in a position of power or influence as payment for having made the income possible: usually considered improper or unethical.
2. a rebate, usually given secretively by a seller to a buyer or to one who influenced the buyer.

 

[landlover]

I really do not care what you do. You are probably an ethical guy, but that is just a guess.

I am just letting you all know that CFO's might see this a bit differently. What many see is CASH. That is their world.

From my research the only way to not receive Atlantic rewards is either not take them or set up contract fuel. If you pay with a credit card you either take them or atlantic keeps the money. All of this has been explained a few times with the CFO. He elected to not have contract fuel.

 

[doh]

You are essentially taking a "kickback" on your fuel purchase. I am sure if you asked every CFO in the country what would you rather have, a .05/gal discount, or give your pilot a $5 certificate, for every 100 gals, 9.9 out of 10 will take the fuel discount.

If it is ok with your company, I say go for it. Just do not be surprised if a bean counter sees it diferently.

If you want to have some grins, just go tell the CFO how Atlantic gives pilots $5 certificates.

Since my bonus (about 3 times the size of awards I got last year) is based heavily on fuel savings, if I tell the bean counter I base my fuel purchases on awards points, he will know I can't add.

 

[clydefastly]

The company I work for knows about Atlantic Bucks, and they see it as a perk for us. We aren't hiding this from the company. The best part is that most of the Atlantic's that we go to have cheaper fuel than most of the other FBO's we frequent, so we aren't taking more expensive gas for a "kick back". It also helps that we go to Atlantic in TEB, where we start most of our westbound trans-cons. Taking the appropriate amount of fuel when there is a personal reward is a professional decision each of us have to make. I can see how someone flying a piaggio or other short range fuel sipping plane may not like Atlantic Bucks, but for others it is a nice perk when it is available and appropriate. I don't think it is unethical at all. Are there people that will abuse the system? Absolutely, but you always have "that guy" in every group.

If you think fuel rewards are unethical, then I want to bring up ramp fee's that can be waived by a high quantity fuel purchase. If I'm at SFO and need to repo to somewhere close buy with a short runway, then I can't meet their minimum fuel purchase and the company has to pay a $400-500 ramp fee. So there is negative pressure to take more fuel than might be necessary or safe. Where is the outrage on this practice?

 

[glasspilot]

Since my bonus (about 3 times the size of awards I got last year) is based heavily on fuel savings, if I tell the bean counter I base my fuel purchases on awards points, he will know I can't add.

If this post is true then you are in no danger of ethical concerns. You are motivated to do the right thing and are simply taking advantage of Atlantics program.

Many, however, base their fuel purchase on the kick back and they are the topic here.


As a new FO (previous employer) I took off in ASE after a top off one summer. I noticed we rotated late and figured out later the captain topped off to make $15 in Atlantic Bucks at the cost of a balanced field. Based on that alone I know fuel strategies are influenced by this program.

If I were in charge of the FAA I'd shut it down. How is it safe to pay pilots to take extra weight? Just hope they do the right thing...always....every time...with lives in the balance? No way should the monatary incentive be to take more weight.

Working out legal and safe is more than enough for most pilots can handle. Add the influence of financial gain and we, as a group, come off the rails and Atlantic knows that. They count on it and thats why they have the program in the first place.

 

[glasspilot]

The company I work for knows about Atlantic Bucks, and they see it as a perk for us. We aren't hiding this from the company. The best part is that most of the Atlantic's that we go to have cheaper fuel than most of the other FBO's we frequent, so we aren't taking more expensive gas for a "kick back". It also helps that we go to Atlantic in TEB, where we start most of our westbound trans-cons. Taking the appropriate amount of fuel when there is a personal reward is a professional decision each of us have to make. I can see how someone flying a piaggio or other short range fuel sipping plane may not like Atlantic Bucks, but for others it is a nice perk when it is available and appropriate. I don't think it is unethical at all. Are there people that will abuse the system? Absolutely, but you always have "that guy" in every group.

If you think fuel rewards are unethical, then I want to bring up ramp fee's that can be waived by a high quantity fuel purchase. If I'm at SFO and need to repo to somewhere close buy with a short runway, then I can't meet their minimum fuel purchase and the company has to pay a $400-500 ramp fee. So there is negative pressure to take more fuel than might be necessary or safe. Where is the outrage on this practice?

Oh, so this is an issue of us Piaggio drivers and other "short range aircraft" operators not liking it.

Hey Jackwad, if it's a small kick back for a "gas sipper" then it's a bigger kick back for a gas guzzler. You just made my point! I've flown planes that guzzle over 19,000lbs an hour but that's not really the point, is it? A kick back is a kick back and it's unethical regardless.

Sorry, but the arogance and stupidity of that post sorta ticked me off. "you little Piaggio drivers may not like it but us REAL jet pilots ike it just fine".

I call BullHonkey.

 

[clydefastly]

Oh, so this is an issue of us Piaggio drivers and other "short range aircraft" operators not liking it.

Hey Jackwad, if it's a small kick back for a "gas sipper" then it's a bigger kick back for a gas guzzler. You just made my point! I've flown planes that guzzle over 19,000lbs an hour but that's not really the point, is it? A kick back is a kick back and it's unethical regardless.

Sorry, but the arogance and stupidity of that post sorta ticked me off. "you little Piaggio drivers may not like it but us REAL jet pilots ike it just fine".

I call BullHonkey.

Wow, that's not what I meant at all, you took what I said way and went off the deep end. This wasn't a peter measuring contest, but I've flown with guys that used to fly short haul smaller stuff like a king air, piaggio, etc that used to hate Atlantic Bucks because they were few and far between, and now they love them. Its all relative, that was the point, not that I fly something bigger, but that seems to be an issue for you. And getting double rewards for a top off isn't unethical if the top off is necessary for the flight, its a nice perk, not a kick back, that was my point.

And look I was able to keep my cool and not call you names. It's called having a civil conversation, you should try it sometime.

 

[clydefastly]

Thanks Glass, you reminded me very quickly why I haven't posted here in a long time. It might do you some good to take some time off from FI, you may see your stress level go way down. You are wound up tight brother.