No AVtrip at Signature after 1/1/2012 !

[hawkerflyer]

If I topped off to get double points, I'd be unemployed. The new Avfuel pilot survey asked if I took more fuel for an incentive and I answered no. My bonus is also based on fuel performance and our flight department beat the national average by over $2/gallon. With 3 aircraft flying 1000+ hours a year fleetwide, that's nothing to sneeze at. No special tricks, normal preflight fuel planning, tankering and using contract fuel when possible. My owner loves it and only a moron would top off to get points, especially when performance is an issue.

 

[doh]

If this post is true then you are in no danger of ethical concerns. You are motivated to do the right thing and are simply taking advantage of Atlantics program.

Many, however, base their fuel purchase on the kick back and they are the topic here.


As a new FO (previous employer) I took off in ASE after a top off one summer. I noticed we rotated late and figured out later the captain topped off to make $15 in Atlantic Bucks at the cost of a balanced field. Based on that alone I know fuel strategies are influenced by this program.

If I were in charge of the FAA I'd shut it down. How is it safe to pay pilots to take extra weight? Just hope they do the right thing...always....every time...with lives in the balance? No way should the monatary incentive be to take more weight.

Working out legal and safe is more than enough for most pilots can handle. Add the influence of financial gain and we, as a group, come off the rails and Atlantic knows that. They count on it and thats why they have the program in the first place.

Thank God you're not in charge! Just because some asshat does something stupid does not mean that all the responsible adults have to be punished.

 

[glasspilot]

Wow, that's not what I meant at all, you took what I said way and went off the deep end. This wasn't a peter measuring contest, but I've flown with guys that used to fly short haul smaller stuff like a king air, piaggio, etc that used to hate Atlantic Bucks because they were few and far between, and now they love them. Its all relative, that was the point, not that I fly something bigger, but that seems to be an issue for you. And getting double rewards for a top off isn't unethical if the top off is necessary for the flight, its a nice perk, not a kick back, that was my point.

And look I was able to keep my cool and not call you names. It's called having a civil conversation, you should try it sometime.

Okay, I'm sorry for the "Jackwad" thing then. I thought you were calling me out by name as I do fly, well, a Piaggio and you said "Piaggio".

Look, this is easy. Money is money. As long as you buy enough to trip the $200 per year limit you're getting it. Bigger planes get more than smaller planes but so what? The point is the same...it's a kick back.

And here's proof it changes pilot behaviour...ya ready? It's rock solid proof...indisputable...

The Program Exsists. that's right. If it didn't change behaviour then they wouldn't offer it. But it does and they do. Tell yourselves whatever makes you feel better, but the fact remains and I'm right...you know it.

As for ramp fees being waived, that is different and it's obvious why. The pilot doesn't gain. There is no financial incentive for the pilot either way. They charge the fee to make money. If you buy gas then they make their money and waive the fee.

By the way, I do not participate in Atlantic Bucks. I give them all to the FO and this thread is why.

 

[clydefastly]

Okay, I'm sorry for the "Jackwad" thing then. I thought you were calling me out by name as I do fly, well, a Piaggio and you said "Piaggio".

Look, this is easy. Money is money. As long as you buy enough to trip the $200 per year limit you're getting it. Bigger planes get more than smaller planes but so what? The point is the same...it's a kick back.

And here's proof it changes pilot behaviour...ya ready? It's rock solid proof...indisputable...

The Program Exsists. that's right. If it didn't change behaviour then they wouldn't offer it. But it does and they do. Tell yourselves whatever makes you feel better, but the fact remains and I'm right...you know it.

As for ramp fees being waived, that is different and it's obvious why. The pilot doesn't gain. There is no financial incentive for the pilot either way. They charge the fee to make money. If you buy gas then they make their money and waive the fee.

By the way, I do not participate in Atlantic Bucks. I give them all to the FO and this thread is why.

Thanks for the apology, I was not attacking you for where or what you fly.

But to counter your indisputable point, I think the program may exist because some pilots have the choice, or decision as to what FBO is used at an airport. Now if the fuel prices and other fee's are comparable at the only two FBO's on a field, Atlantic Bucks could be the thing to draw the business of that pilot over to Atlantic vs. the competition that may not have a fuel reward program.

I would agree that if the original intent of the program was to get pilots to buy more than is necessary or safe, then that is unethical. But the fact remains that in some cases tankering fuel is a safe and acceptable practice when done properly, and is usually done from the aircrafts home airport where the fuel is usually cheaper. Those that push or exceed performance and safety just to get a few bucks in their pocket are being unethical and dangerous. But others that get Atlantic Bucks in their normal fueling practices get to enjoy the perk of the program.

The company I work for tell us what FBO to go to, so when I get a long trip out of an Atlantic that requires a top off, its a nice perk that we get to reep the rewards of the program. How is that unethical?

 

[glasspilot]

It's not. But the program is designed to influence behavior. Are there times the fuel is cheaper at the Atlantic and you would have tankard anyway? Sure. I have tankard out of Atlantic before for that reason...and remember, I don't do the ABs, I give them ALL to the FO.

But Atlantic has realized that they can do better. They can get the "on the fence" pilot to up the order with their .05 / gal (really .03 or so if you account for lost or unused rewards) kick back program.

If every fuel order came from some government office of fuel planning and all pilot decisions were removed from the equation do you think the Atlantic Buck program would remain? Of course not. They may try to give their kick backs to the government employee, but pilots would be out and that's a fact.

So you see, it's clearly a kick back program designed to influence pilot behavior and the "unethical claim" is certainly defendable. I was not suggesting pilots routinely fly unsafe and out of limits as a result, my point was that it's the extreme and it DOES happen and it a direct result of Atlantics program. I I were in charge of the universe I'd shut it down. But I'm not so enjoy your kick back.


btw, what would some of you union pilots think of a pay structure for pilots that paid for gross weight lifted and didn't respect limits of the plane? Ie, if you take off over gross you're paid more? Would the union guys be behind that?

 

[Pervis]

........the program is designed to influence behavior.

Just like any coupon program from Kroger to Best Buy. One difference is most of us in this forum buy as directed from the mother ship, unless a change is considered for safety or a number of other reasons. Then we discuss those issues with our dispatch department. Another difference is that we are professionals.

........btw, what would some of you union pilots think of a pay structure for pilots that paid for gross weight lifted and didn't respect limits of the plane? Ie, if you take off over gross you're paid more? Would the union guys be behind that?

That's one of the most ridiculous questions I've seen here, even from you. Rhetorical or not.

 

[jonjuan]

It's not. But the program is designed to influence behavior.

As is an end of the year fuel incentive program. Ultimately, the cheaper fuel you get, the more $$$$ in your pocket under this sort of program. You are INCENTIVIZED to do things such as tanker cheaper fuel. This is NO different. You know it-you have simply argued yourself into a corner and will hold your breath until you turn blue or pass out. That's OK. It doesn't mean your logic is sound, however.

 

[G100driver]

The company I work for knows about Atlantic Bucks, and they see it as a perk for us. We aren't hiding this from the company. The best part is that most of the Atlantic's that we go to have cheaper fuel than most of the other FBO's we frequent, so we aren't taking more expensive gas for a "kick back". It also helps that we go to Atlantic in TEB, where we start most of our westbound trans-cons. Taking the appropriate amount of fuel when there is a personal reward is a professional decision each of us have to make. I can see how someone flying a piaggio or other short range fuel sipping plane may not like Atlantic Bucks, but for others it is a nice perk when it is available and appropriate. I don't think it is unethical at all. Are there people that will abuse the system? Absolutely, but you always have "that guy" in every group.

If you think fuel rewards are unethical, then I want to bring up ramp fee's that can be waived by a high quantity fuel purchase. If I'm at SFO and need to repo to somewhere close buy with a short runway, then I can't meet their minimum fuel purchase and the company has to pay a $400-500 ramp fee. So there is negative pressure to take more fuel than might be necessary or safe. Where is the outrage on this practice?

The fact that you are buying fuel at Atlantic in TEB makes me suspect. A quick search of CAA or UVair you will significant savings going to JET or Meridian. Atlantic TEB has consistantly had the highest prices. (unless you want hanger space in the winter, then the high prices might be worth it.)

I have zero problem with ramp fees as a practice. We go to SFO and we get charged $800. Yes it sucks and is expensive but is still cheaper than taking the minimum with their crazy fuel price.

The FBO has overhead and you are using their ramp. Do not like it? Go to Oakland or fly SWA. Corporate jets are expensive.

 

[Pervis]

The fact that you are buying fuel at Atlantic in TEB makes me suspect. A quick search of CAA or UVair you will significant savings going to JET or Meridian. Atlantic TEB has consistantly had the highest prices. (unless you want hanger space in the winter, then the high prices might be worth it.)

Unlike corporate, fractional jets go where the owners want, or where the mother ship dictates. Starting up and repositioning to another FBO for cheaper fuel, only to go back is more costly than higher fuel prices. I believe XO Jet has a presence at Atlantic TEB, like NJA uses First-most of the time.

 

[gret]

If you're employed by a company of any size, your employee manual should address gifts from vendors (including airline and hotel points).

If any doubt, it would seem that if you disclose the receipt of the AB to your employer and they say no problem, great. If you haven't, it is probably because you already know what the answer will be and don't want to hear it.

Usually you know if you are doing the right thing by honestly asking...what would you want to happen if you owned the company?