Need some Virgin America Info...

[Golden Falcon]

Where did you get the attitude Fujackbar?? Gulfstream? or when mommy and daddy paid for ERAU? or at Mesa..explain?? Your own younions at your purported major airlines has dragged the industry down with concessions....dont blame it on the bottom feeders....

 

[cmrflyer]

VA is Virgin Atlantic, doosh. BTW, they make about 2/3rds what BA makes. Anyone who works for Sir Dick is an idiot.

Fubi, again you show your unbelievable knowledge of everything.

VX is virgin america
VS is virgin atlantic

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You are truly not going to change anyone's mind with aggressive posts filled with obscenity and vitriol. Makes you sound like a union thug.

More flies with honey and whatnot. Make your points politely and provide references and let your readers decide for themselves.

This is not the first generation of pilots to face these challenges. When I started out in the industry the same battle was waged but with the RJ rather than an LCC model. More and more 50 seat jets darkened the sky as Bac1-11s, DC9s, F28s, and other narrow body mainline fleets (and their associated jobs) disappeared. Sadly, ALPA was no help as they were required to represent the best interests of all pilot groups involved rather than those that would defend the profession.

My point is that the anger here is misplaced and ineffective. All this has happened before and will happen again. So my advice? Have some eggnog. Enjoy time with the family. And come back calm, mature, and ready to share a professional dialogue on a topic that you are obviously passionate about.

Happy New Year!

-FurloughedAgain

 

[Lake Alice]

Scope has worked so well at Delta, United, Northwest, American, etc. Scope doesn't work when ALPA gives it away, which has been their history.

How about asking the TWA pilots how well their merger protection worked? How about the USAir/America West guys - ALPA sure made sure their merger went well.

Try and keep up. TWA received a 52% staple while on the verge of liquidating. Mckaskill/Bond suggest a 50% staple based on sections 3,13 of Alegheny/Mohawk while NOT in bankruptcy. USair/America west was decided by an arbitrator.

Your comment is based on false rhetoric and innuendo JetBlue mailed out during he campaign.

 

[Lake Alice]

You didn't answer my question. So I'll repeat it for you. First I don't work for Virgin, but explain to me how their pay is dragging the industry down when it is better then Usairways and on par with United. Maybe I'm missing something.

Yes. You're absolutely clueless.

When you have a chance compare united/usairs medical, STD/LTD, sick bank, vacation bank, 401K, B fund to Virgin America. Take a look at that info and get back to me.
What airlines like Virgin/Jetblue believe is patting someone on the back, having cookouts on the 4th of July or giving you the opportunity to name a plane are somehow and acceptable replacement for pay and benefits.

 

[Fubijaakr]

All I need to do is let Lake Alice post. He knows first hand the problems caused by low pay non-union companies.

 

[NEDude]

Ok,once and for all I'm going to TRY to put this in terms that even a 4th grader can understand.

You currently work for QX CA rates. When I start Section 6 negotiations this summer, my management will attempt to drive down my rates to match yours.

What about that can't you understand?

What is it about you that cannot grasp the concept of pay rates? Nobody at VX works for Horizon pay RATES. There may be some who work for Horizon captain pay, but that is different than pay rates. There are pilots at Alaska who are working for less than Horizon Captain pay as well.

When Southwest management goes to their pilots for pay cuts, they are going to use Alaska pay rates, and every other ALPA carrier that pays less than Southwest. You will be used as leverage to drive down pay at Southwest. So I am bad because you think your management will use my rates to drive down yours, but give yourself a free pass when your rates will be used to drive down some other companies wage. Hypocrite...

 

[Fubijaakr]

Hey, Idiot. The only rate that matters is the Captain rate. All the other rates are driven from that.

YOU ARE FLYING TODAY for Regional Pay rates. Period.

Oh, and by the way, its YOUR rate that Gary Kelly is eyeing, not mine. So, wrong again, Scumbag.

 

[Lake Alice]

Has Swa changed their pay rates? No! Will they change their pay rates? Historically speaking no. Your hypothetical rationalizing for your pathetic pay rate is an irrational argument. Your management, much like Jetblues, have some how force fed this Marxist socialist mentality that paying for your own insurance while on disabilityis some how acceptable while our cohorts at Delta with Newtonian anger would bloody their fist at the very thought of such shenanigans. For that matter Swa pilots would do the same and united and Usair and Alaska and American and...(insert airline).

Point being the proverbial line is out the door for pilots waiting for industry depressing jobs like Virgin America and for those of us trying to eek out a living this bottom feeding under belly of start up carriers makes life that much more difficult.

 

[NEDude]

Hey, Idiot. The only rate that matters is the Captain rate. All the other rates are driven from that.

YOU ARE FLYING TODAY for Regional Pay rates. Period.

Oh, and by the way, its YOUR rate that Gary Kelly is eyeing, not mine. So, wrong again, Scumbag.

When your captain rates are the same as Southwest, American and Delta - and not because they were lowered to your pay because of your undercutting - come back and act holier than thou. Until then you are simply a blowhard hypocrite.

 

[NEDude]

Has Swa changed their pay rates? No! Will they change their pay rates? Historically speaking no. Your hypothetical rationalizing for your pathetic pay rate is an irrational argument. Your management, much like Jetblues, have some how force fed this Marxist socialist mentality that paying for your own insurance while on disabilityis some how acceptable while our cohorts at Delta with Newtonian anger would bloody their fist at the very thought of such shenanigans. For that matter Swa pilots would do the same and united and Usair and Alaska and American and...(insert airline).

Point being the proverbial line is out the door for pilots waiting for industry depressing jobs like Virgin America and for those of us trying to eek out a living this bottom feeding under belly of start up carriers makes life that much more difficult.

Another ALPA hypocrite who turns a blind eye to his own massive failings. ALPA sold out this industry by giving away scope, and DALPA lead the charge with that one, yet the ALPA lemmings give themselves a free pass. You are the reason there are no entry level jobs at the legacy carriers. Because of ALPA's massive failings, pilots have two choices, live in poverty flying RJs, or try a start-up or LCC.

Recognize and fix your own failings before preaching to anyone else. Until then you have no credibility.

 

[DHPFLYN]

And there, Ladies and Gentlemen is the viewpoint of the average VX pilot.

Nice job, Azz.

Hey looks like this is the view of a average ****************************** pilot as yourself. Talk about calling the kettle black. As you said nice job Azz

"Sounds an awful lot like you SWA boys want to tell other pilots what to do. If you have to fly underblock to pad your paycheck, TFB. Perhaps you should concentrate less on hurry and more on safety.

That would have kept at least two of your airplanes inside the airport boundary. "
__________________
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. - H.L. Mencken

 

[Lake Alice]

Another ALPA hypocrite who turns a blind eye to his own massive failings. ALPA sold out this industry by giving away scope, and DALPA lead the charge with that one, yet the ALPA lemmings give themselves a free pass. You are the reason there are no entry level jobs at the legacy carriers. Because of ALPA's massive failings, pilots have two choices, live in poverty flying RJs, or try a start-up or LCC.

Recognize and fix your own failings before preaching to anyone else. Until then you have no credibility.

I'm just curious what you think a regional carrier pilot should make. But first how does the regional carrier derive it's profits? How is ALPA at fault for a regional carrier salaries?
For Jetblue ALPA is a vehicle to a CBA. It's needed now more than ever. How that makes me a hypocrite...well your going to have to explain that one.

 

[NEDude]

I'm just curious what you think a regional carrier pilot should make. But first how does the regional carrier derive it's profits? How is ALPA at fault for a regional carrier salaries?
For Jetblue ALPA is a vehicle to a CBA. It's needed now more than ever. How that makes me a hypocrite...well your going to have to explain that one.

Regional pilots should make a liveable wage - ie. more than high school dropouts with felony records who deliver pizzas for a living. They should make more than RTA drivers in Cleveland, more than the local elementary school janitor, and more than the government worker who takes their foodstamp applications. ALPA has endorsed and given blessing to these extremely low wages that regional pilots make. In addition ALPA has allowed outsourcing of the entry level jobs at mainline legacy carriers thus reducing opportunities for regional pilots to improve their quality of life.

ALPA has screwed the profession and now wants the people they have screwed to make even more sacrifices for them, while refusing to acknowledge or fix their own mistakes, or make sacrifices of their own. That is what makes you (ALPA collectively) a hypocrite.

If you cannot recognize that, you are beyond hope.

 

[NEDude]

Hey looks like this is the view of a average ****************************** pilot as yourself. Talk about calling the kettle black. As you said nice job Azz

"Sounds an awful lot like you SWA boys want to tell other pilots what to do. If you have to fly underblock to pad your paycheck, TFB. Perhaps you should concentrate less on hurry and more on safety.

That would have kept at least two of your airplanes inside the airport boundary. "
__________________
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. - H.L. Mencken

Yes, because we all know Alaska has always focused on stellar maintenance and never run aircraft off runways due to pilots negligence

 

[Lake Alice]

Regional pilots should make a liveable wage - ie. more than high school dropouts with felony records who deliver pizzas for a living. They should make more than RTA drivers in Cleveland, more than the local elementary school janitor, and more than the government worker who takes their foodstamp applications. ALPA has endorsed and given blessing to these extremely low wages that regional pilots make. In addition ALPA has allowed outsourcing of the entry level jobs at mainline legacy carriers thus reducing opportunities for regional pilots to improve their quality of life.

ALPA has screwed the profession and now wants the people they have screwed to make even more sacrifices for them, while refusing to acknowledge or fix their own mistakes, or make sacrifices of their own. That is what makes you (ALPA collectively) a hypocrite.

If you cannot recognize that, you are beyond hope.

Look, Im sure you're a nice guy but your comparison is apples to oranges. Each of your examples is a negotiation between an employee and employer. Your regional airline relationship is an employee to employer to employer which ALPA has nothing to do with. Its staggering how most fail to understand this point. To reiterate, ALPA has nothing to do with what a major airline pays a regional carrier for feed service. ALPA, or any union, can only negotiate what the regional feeder pays its employees. You will never receive the pay and benefits you desire under that business arrangement. And again, it has nothing to do with any union. Does a regional carrier set routes and prices? Ofcourse not. What ALPA is guilty of is managing your expectations. ALPA led you to believe your worth was inline with mainline pay and benefits. It's not.
I understand this may be upsetting but it is reality. Virgin America can afford mainline pay and benefits. Jetblue can afford to do the same. Both are in greater control of their profits.
If your goal is to be paid a wage commensurate with your experience work for a major airline.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Nice try, NEDoof. Let's compare an accident from the '70s to the Smurf's common practice of rush, rush, rush. The admitted ON THIS BOARD that they routinely rush to log under block so they can pick up additional flying at time and a half.

That's a systemic problem that is encouraged by their management. Read some of their posts on the AA crawl thread.

But since you're ONLY agenda is to deflect valid criticism of your crappy airline with straw man arguments, best of luck with that.

Everyone in the industry recognizes the black uniform and the pariahs who wear them.

 

[pilotpm]

Your regional airline relationship is an employee to employer to employer which ALPA has nothing to do with.

Except maybe the fact of ALPAs collusion in the existence of regional airlines to begin with. If they had held the line on scope there would be no such thing as an RJ.

 

[NEDude]

Look, Im sure you're a nice guy but your comparison is apples to oranges. Each of your examples is a negotiation between an employee and employer. Your regional airline relationship is an employee to employer to employer which ALPA has nothing to do with. Its staggering how most fail to understand this point. To reiterate, ALPA has nothing to do with what a major airline pays a regional carrier for feed service. ALPA, or any union, can only negotiate what the regional feeder pays its employees. You will never receive the pay and benefits you desire under that business arrangement. And again, it has nothing to do with any union. Does a regional carrier set routes and prices? Ofcourse not. What ALPA is guilty of is managing your expectations. ALPA led you to believe your worth was inline with mainline pay and benefits. It's not.
I understand this may be upsetting but it is reality. Virgin America can afford mainline pay and benefits. Jetblue can afford to do the same. Both are in greater control of their profits.
If your goal is to be paid a wage commensurate with your experience work for a major airline.

You are deflecting the blame by claiming ALPA has nothing to do with the current relationship between mainline carriers and the regionals when ALPA essentially created the relationship to begin with. ALPA allowed the RJs to be outsourced to begin with. Had ALPA not opened the door to the outsourcing in the early 1990s, there would not be the epidemic of mainline sized aircraft being flown by pilots living on foodstamps. This can be placed squarely at the feet of ALPA and there is no getting around that.

Secondly, assuming you are an ALPA member, you are obviously aware that all ALPA contracts have to ultimately be approved by the ALPA president. Every single poverty level wage paying ALPA contract was signed off by ALPA national. The refusal of ALPA national to stick to its guns and insist on a liveable wage for all professional pilots has made it more profitable for mainline to outsource to the regionals, again dragging the profession even lower. Once again ALPA turns a blind eye to its own failings and wonders why the profession is going downhill.

Yourself, Fubi and others who share your mindset are taking the simple mans approach - blame someone else for your problems. ALPA initially created the RJ epidemic, and allows it to continue every time they agree to more relaxation of scope (giving away more entry level mainline jobs) and sign off on every poverty level regional contract (making it more advantageous for mainline management outsource even more). Acknowledge and fix your own failings or go away.

 

[NEDude]

Nice try, NEDoof. Let's compare an accident from the '70s to the Smurf's common practice of rush, rush, rush. The admitted ON THIS BOARD that they routinely rush to log under block so they can pick up additional flying at time and a half.

That's a systemic problem that is encouraged by their management. Read some of their posts on the AA crawl thread.

But since you're ONLY agenda is to deflect valid criticism of your crappy airline with straw man arguments, best of luck with that.

Everyone in the industry recognizes the black uniform and the pariahs who wear them.

Coming from the king of deflecting arguments. You gleefully accuse other airlines of cutting maintenance corners while failing to acknowledge your own companies very high profile maintenance issues. In fact failing to recognize or acknowledge any shortcoming of your own seems to be a real issue of yours. Of course most small minded people lack the ability to see their own shortcomings, so I guess I should not be surprised.