Need some Virgin America Info...

[NEDude]

Seriously, NEDoosh...Do you even have clue how ALPA contracts are negotiated. Obviously not, since you repeat the same hogwash.

So what you are saying, and obviously not realizing, is that ALPA national is completely ineffective at raising the bar and powerless to prevent individual MECs from lowering it. Not a great selling point my friend. Perhaps you need to work on your sales pitch.

And thanks for throwing the "NEDoosh" in there, glad to see you brain is still incapable thinking up new ideas.

 

[Lake Alice]

ALPA nationals stance is to support each individual MEC to attain a contract that the pilot group wants. No outside agenda as evident in the latest contracts with FedEx, DAL and Alaska. Each MEC negotiated different contractual events important to their respective pilot group. The days of +1% are over and this is good for the industry and the pilot groups.

 

[tzskipper]

This has been an interesting thread (in a weird kind of way....). I agree with Lake Alice's opinion;

"ALPA nationals stance is to support each individual MEC to attain a contract that the pilot group wants. No outside agenda as evident in the latest contracts with FedEx, DAL and Alaska. Each MEC negotiated different contractual events important to their respective pilot group. The days of +1% are over and this is good for the industry and the pilot groups."

However, it does raise a question; if negotiations and contracts are driven by the individual pilot group "wants" (not to mention the economic "realities" of the airline that the Mediator has to consider in his efforts), is there truly a "bar" that is set that all groups should strive for? It seems contradictory to say that both cases can coincide.

S

 

[NEDude]

Exactly right. NEDoosh hates ALPA so badly, he refuses to acknowledge this simple fact.

That's why he's at VX...he thinks Daddy Sir Dick will take care of him because he's a "good soldier" who won't question whatever pay/benefit the big Dick decides is adequate for him.

That is the ultimate expression of weakness, in my opinion...the unwillingness to stand up for yourself as a unified group.

Its me, me, me that guys like the NEDoosh are all about.

Don't hate ALPA, just mindless fools like yourself who thinks ALPA "will take care of him because he's a 'good soldier' who won't question" any of the failings of the union.

You yourself have argued that ALPA is weak and not unified which mean ALPA itself is guilty of "the ultimate expression of weakness, in my opinion...the unwillingness to stand up for yourself as a unified group."

Seriously, your sales pitch needs a lot of work. Your "Join a weak and ineffective ALPA or you are scum and I will deny you the jumpseat" tactic is just not the least bit effective.

Oh, and thanks for the "NEDoosh" glad you are showing the quality of your Language major in college, I am sure they have you on their list of distinguished alumni.

 

[xjhawk]

how does this always get highjacked by haters? I mean if you do not want to go to Virgin and give the company a chance-why not just mind your own business?

I know a few things about reality. There are a lot of good things about this company. Every person I have ever heard talk about any Virgin branded company they have never had a bad word to say about their work experience. A lot of you talk about pay and risk. Who are you to talk about pay unless you are FedEx or Southwest? I mean come on! And unless you are hiring you have even less to bash about. I for one am at a regional and would like the opportunity to go to Virgin. Better pay, better culture, and in my mind, less risk. I like the idea of a good business model, instead of one where Daddy rebids your flying. Or the fact that the regional I work for has 140 + crj's that Delta does not want and by 2017 they will most likely be gone or be at Gojets.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If you work for VX don't be surprised in 10 years when you're making $100K a year at your dream Legacy Airline Captain job. And when you want to see the guy responsible for flushing the airline pilot career down the toilet, you can just look in the mirror.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Drama queen. This is getting a bit old.

 

[strobzz]

If you work for VX don't be surprised in 10 years when you're making $100K a year at your dream Legacy Airline Captain job. And when you want to see the guy responsible for flushing the airline pilot career down the toilet, you can just look in the mirror.

That can`t happen,according to you,VX won`t last that long.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Read for comprehension, strobzz. VX will be gone, but the damage you inflict on narrowbody pay rates will last for years. Look at the effect the initial jetBlue rates are inflicting on USAir and UAL pilots.

jetBlue has made gains, but those legacy pilots are stuck with the B6 rates the bankruptcy court imposed on them.

 

[tzskipper]

In reality (due to the rapidly changing airline financials), pattern bargaining no longer exists. Management throws out the "XXX + 1%" as a red herring, because it is easier and less expensive than negotiating a contract that the "new" economic realities of the legacy airline group would actually support.

To think that a company like VX would or even could, hamper a legacy pilot groups ability to negotiate a contract that their company can afford (in the eyes of a Mediator), is a myopic view at best and a cop-out at worst.

S

 

[Fubijaakr]

To think that a company like VX would or even could, hamper a legacy pilot groups ability to negotiate a contract that their company can afford (in the eyes of a Mediator), is a myopic view at best and a cop-out at worst.

Really? Ask a UAL narrowbody guy how he likes working for the old B6 wage rate imposed by the bankruptcy court judge.

The view that pilots who fly A320s for regional wages doesn't effect other contract negotiations isn't myopic, its just plain blind.

 

[tzskipper]

Really? Ask a UAL narrowbody guy how he likes working for the old B6 wage rate imposed by the bankruptcy court judge.

The view that pilots who fly A320s for regional wages doesn't effect other contract negotiations isn't myopic, its just plain blind.

The key word in your supposition is "bankruptcy". Do you seriously think they would have done any better had B6 not existed? The UAL negotiators/MEC were faced with determining the lesser of two "evils"; the first "evil" would be what could be negotiated given the financial position of the company, The second (worse) "evil" would be rolling the dice and taking what the Court imposed. I believe the negcom and MEC chose the first "evil", that is negotiating a "restructuring agreement" outside of court. (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/50899490/ALPA---UAL-Restructuring-Agreement-March-26-2003).

It is obvious from your rhetoric and words, that you have not been directly involved in these types of negotiations and what truly drives them. Hopefully someone who was involved directly in the UAL restructuring can chime in to educate us all. In my perspective, it seems to be a very shallow assumption on your part that B6 was responsible for the gutting of the UAL contract. You would be better to place the blame where it belongs; on the shoulders of UAL's inept, greedy and arrogant management.

Out of curiosity, why do you not spend your energy and efforts to help organize these properties that you rail against (B6 and VX)? The vitriol that you espouse doesn't do you justice if you are truly a Union man. It simply paints you as a bitter isolationist.

S

 

[Lake Alice]

That agreement is negotiated between the Airline and the union. The bankruptcy judge lends his approval to it. Trustees do the majority of negotiating between debtors and creditors and doling out monies to creditors. Bankruptcy judges sign off on motions and petitions during the process.

 

[Lake Alice]

UAL's "inept, greedy and arrogant management" shoulder much of the blame but in UAL's case their was much to share. The role of a B6 or in the future a VX is simple. They are used as a reference during the negotiations. Most domestic airlines flying similar equipment are used as examples.

 

[tzskipper]

UAL's "inept, greedy and arrogant management" shoulder much of the blame but in UAL's case their was much to share. The role of a B6 or in the future a VX is simple. They are used as a reference during the negotiations. Most domestic airlines flying similar equipment are used as examples.

True.

"A" reference point. Not "the" reference point.

S

 

[Fubijaakr]

UAL's "inept, greedy and arrogant management" shoulder much of the blame but in UAL's case their was much to share. The role of a B6 or in the future a VX is simple. They are used as a reference during the negotiations. Most domestic airlines flying similar equipment are used as examples.

Exactly. For a narrowbody operator negotiating this year, LCC and UAL rates will be a factor. And they are so low PRECISELY because of the horrid non-Union B6 rate that was imposed way back when.

Factor in the terrible VX rate currently on the books and it becomes an uphill battle. Sorry, Skip, but those are the facts.

 

[Lake Alice]

Exactly. For a narrowbody operator negotiating this year, LCC and UAL rates will be a factor. And they are so low PRECISELY because of the horrid non-Union B6 rate that was imposed way back when.

Factor in the terrible VX rate currently on the books and it becomes an uphill battle. Sorry, Skip, but those are the facts.

Now Fubi let's not get all crazylike. As Jetblue benchmarks pay rates today the VX rates move the average down 2-3%. The B6 rates used during the UAL bankruptcy could have moved the percentage about the same. One airline does not make or break the average.

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's true. However, when one (or several) airlines set the downward trend in wages/benefits, other airlines are pressured to follow. The reverse of "jacking the house" if you will.

Look at SWA. They have the highest narrowbody pay rate right now. However, the God King just warned them that there may have to be "adjustments" due to their recent losses.

And the rationale will be to remain "competitive" with carriers who pay their narrowbody Captains regional turboprop rates.

 

[Lake Alice]

Agreed.

 

[Flyer1015]

Fubi, what ALPA carrier is hiring right now? Delta, no. UniCal, no. Airtran, no. You tell me one legacy/major ALPA carrier that is hiring, and I'll apply. Until then, if VA calls, I'm taking it. Or, would you rather that I "hold the line" on this profession and continue flying for an ALPA regional airline making s***** wages?