Pay: Should Delta/United get raises or SWA pilots take a paycut?

[JT12345]

A lot of talk about Gary Kelly's letter, and considering that Legacy pilots lost 40% of their pay and pensions worth another 120k+/yr for 16 years (Avg. retirement vs. lifespan = 60/76) in earnings towards retirement which way should it go?

The market decides and the market just got smaller. With bigger pilot groups and higher oil prices (Joe Shmo can't start up an airline now) which way will it go?

Raises or paycuts. Something has got to give cause there is a disparity.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

A lot of talk about Gary Kelly's letter, and considering that Legacy pilots lost 40% of their pay and pensions worth another 120k+/yr for 16 years (Avg. retirement vs. lifespan = 60/76) in earnings towards retirement which way should it go?

The market decides and the market just got smaller. With bigger pilot groups and higher oil prices (Joe Shmo can't start up an airline now) which way will it go?

Raises or paycuts. Something has got to give cause there is a disparity.

It's possible that you get and/or give up no pay, (I hope the other guys get their pay up (for everyone's sake) but who knows!)

Good Luck to us all,
KBB

 

[UALRATT]

A lot of talk about Gary Kelly's letter, and considering that Legacy pilots lost 40% of their pay and pensions worth another 120k+/yr for 16 years (Avg. retirement vs. lifespan = 60/76) in earnings towards retirement which way should it go?

The market decides and the market just got smaller. With bigger pilot groups and higher oil prices (Joe Shmo can't start up an airline now) which way will it go?

Raises or paycuts. Something has got to give cause there is a disparity.

You're gonna drive yourself insane questioning your pocket book every time a manager sings karaoke about his cost. Ask Kelly to plead his case to OPEC!! Last I know that was a "Cartel" and not a free market. In the mean time stay in your fox hole and be prepared to defend against any attempt to have you subsidize the next set of low fares.

 

[N1atEcon]

Gary Kelly stated he will not ask for concessions from employees. Everyone knows what that leads to. He wants more productivity and cost savings from inefficiencies. I would hope Delta can start to get some of their pay back now that they are making money after years of losses.

 

[JT12345]

There is a pilot shortage coming too.

 

[slaquer5]

Gary Kelly stated he will not ask for concessions from employees. Everyone knows what that leads to. He wants more productivity and cost savings from inefficiencies. I would hope Delta can start to get some of their pay back now that they are making money after years of losses.

If SWA changed there bidding to PBS( Delta uses PBS). That would be a saving of almost 15%. American Airlines is trying to get PBS out of there pilots.


FYI PBS sucks

 

[FCPhotography]

Traditionally PBS saves money. If SWA is already flying a pilot 7-8 hours a day...then maybe it won't save that much anyway? SWA already leads the industry in pilot efficiency. I hope PBS stays far away.

 

[Lear70]

FYI PBS sucks

No argument there...

 

[instructordude]

Wages need to be some where between United/American and Southwest's. Southwest probably pays too much but American/United guys probably need a little boost. This would probably be fair.

 

[FlyinGuy]

ID, that is the most moronic statement I have heard. Why do you get to define what is too much or too little? Each company negotiates with each employee group and they come up with their pay. There are so many factors that go into pay and benefits that you cannot have an across the board pay rate (which is a socialist idea). Should a failing carrier pay the same rate as a successful carrier?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Me thinks that I better stay out here flying my tractor

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Have you used PBS Slaquer?

Not too many complaints here....

 

[waveflyer]

It's funny that ID still gets people


Lumberg-
PBS is all in the implementation-and it doesn't change the pairings- but I've yet to see pbs not effect vacation negatively

 

[Benjamin Dover]

It's funny that ID still gets people


Lumberg-
PBS is all in the implementation-and it doesn't change the pairings- but I've yet to see pbs not effect vacation negatively

Wave,

Did you ever work at Delta? PBS did not effect vacation negatively. Delta lost trips touching vacation and went to a vacation bank in their concessionary contract '96. PBS came long afterward. PBS did not effect vacation negatively.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

If SWA changed there bidding to PBS( Delta uses PBS). That would be a saving of almost 15%. American Airlines is trying to get PBS out of there pilots.


FYI PBS sucks

Their is more than one PBS program out their Slaquer. Have you ever used PBS? Much misinformation out their too. You do realize that you can bid specific pairings and not just soft constraints like "weekends off" right? Their you have it - to each there own.

 

[Whataburger]

I think Dal and Ual should give their employees a raise that the company can afford. That is what Southwest did.

 

[instructordude]

ID, that is the most moronic statement I have heard. Why do you get to define what is too much or too little? Each company negotiates with each employee group and they come up with their pay. There are so many factors that go into pay and benefits that you cannot have an across the board pay rate (which is a socialist idea). Should a failing carrier pay the same rate as a successful carrier?

I define too much pay as represented in the old legacy contracts. They BK'd their own companies.

Companies do negotiate with their own unions but are sometimes handcuffed by agressive union actions and have no choice. Take United back in the early 2000's for example. I completed my senior paper at Embry Riddle analyzing the United slowdown and came up with this conclusion. Guess what, I got a A on it.

 

[race#53]

I define too much pay as represented in the old legacy contracts. They BK'd their own companies.


Here is the truth based on facts not speculation;
On the average, the coffee you purchased in the terminal before your flight cost more than what both pilots will earn from your passenger fare for each hour of flight they accept responsibility for your safety.

 

[PCL_128]

Traditionally PBS saves money. If SWA is already flying a pilot 7-8 hours a day...then maybe it won't save that much anyway? SWA already leads the industry in pilot efficiency. I hope PBS stays far away.

The main reason that PBS saves money is month-to-month integration. It eliminates the integration conflicts that cause companies to have to artificially inflate staffing to cover those first few days of the month with pilots that they really don't need for the rest of the month. SWA could certainly gain efficiencies with PBS.

PBS is all in the implementation-and it doesn't change the pairings- but I've yet to see pbs not effect vacation negatively

From what I've heard from the guys at ASA, their PBS system hasn't negatively affected vacation, and might have actually improved it.

 

[texman]

PCL, PBS would kill our pilot group flexibility. Trust me our productivity makes our company money. PBS is only good if you are in the top ten percent.

 

[Sluggo_63]

I completed my senior paper at Embry Riddle analyzing the United slowdown and came up with this conclusion. Guess what, I got a A on it.

I get'cha, InstructorDude. This was an outstanding touch... Love it!

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

The main reason that PBS saves money is month-to-month integration. It eliminates the integration conflicts that cause companies to have to artificially inflate staffing to cover those first few days of the month with pilots that they really don't need for the rest of the month. SWA could certainly gain efficiencies with PBS.



From what I've heard from the guys at ASA, their PBS system hasn't negatively affected vacation, and might have actually improved it.

APPLES to ORANGES, Spent 12 years at a commuter, PBS would've helped there as well, It would've constrained managements slave-like constraints on the pilot group, here (at SW), this is not the issue!

WE DO NOT NEED PBS NOR DO WE WANT PBS AT SWA!!!

KBB

 

[slaquer5]

The main reason that PBS saves money is month-to-month integration. It eliminates the integration conflicts that cause companies to have to artificially inflate staffing to cover those first few days of the month with pilots that they really don't need for the rest of the month. SWA could certainly gain efficiencies with PBS.



From what I've heard from the guys at ASA, their PBS system hasn't negatively affected vacation, and might have actually improved it.[/QUOTE]

Sure my GED buddy. SWA would love to give us more money for our vacation. You will not be alone IF you come to SWA, we have other idiots that think like you do.

 

[WildcatFan]

Wages need to be some where between United/American and Southwest's. Southwest probably pays too much but American/United guys probably need a little boost. This would probably be fair.

Maybe this guy spent poring over huge stacks of SEC filings, privileged internal balance sheets, yield data for each city, oil price forecasts, etc all of which led to a considered professional opinion on what wages need to be for the industry to survive.

Or maybe he is a jackass.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Maybe this guy spent poring over huge stacks of SEC filings, privileged internal balance sheets, yield data for each city, oil price forecasts, etc all of which led to a considered professional opinion on what wages need to be for the industry to survive.

Or maybe he is a jackass.

DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

Peace.

Rekks

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, PBS would kill our pilot group flexibility. Trust me our productivity makes our company money. PBS is only good if you are in the top ten percent.

PBS doesn't kill flexibility at all. You can still have all of the schedule adjustment rules that you have right now. The schedule that you start with is just done through PBS instead of line bidding, which means that most pilots would have to do less with schedule adjustments.

 

[WildcatFan]

PBS doesn't kill flexibility at all. You can still have all of the schedule adjustment rules that you have right now. The schedule that you start with is just done through PBS instead of line bidding, which means that most pilots would have to do less with schedule adjustments.

PCL- do yourself and the pilot group a big favor and stop talking until you have had a chance to live under our current bidding and vacation contract. SWA is pushing for PBS so they can pay you less. Thank me later.

 

[slaquer5]

PCL- do yourself and the pilot group a big favor and stop talking until you have had a chance to live under our current bidding and vacation contract. SWA is pushing for PBS so they can pay you less. Thank me later.

I second that. DO not try to help the SWA pilots like you did the AT pilots.

One thing for sure, you bat 1000.

 

[dicko]

PBS doesn't kill flexibility at all. You can still have all of the schedule adjustment rules that you have right now. The schedule that you start with is just done through PBS instead of line bidding, which means that most pilots would have to do less with schedule adjustments.

40% of AirTran pilots that are enjoying your money losing Reserve system this month .... Strongly disagree that you have a clue how to make pilots money. It's a wash, including the payraise.

Lee Moak loves PBS.

 

[slaquer5]

40% of AirTran pilots that are enjoying your money losing Reserve system this month .... Strongly disagree that you have a clue how to make pilots money. It's a wash, including the payraise.

Lee Moak loves PBS.

GK does also. I have no doubt that someday we will have it forced upon us. Just not sure why some want to do it to ourselves .

Death by Bula Bula