Pay: Should Delta/United get raises or SWA pilots take a paycut?

[Whataburger]

As Lumberg stated, WRONG. If you are senior (like me) in category, it's FANTASTIC. I get pretty much what I want, which is 1 Europe 3 day and a few South America trips per month in the Winter, and opposite in the Summer.

What isn't good (as a result of BK), is trip touching is gone when you have vacation, etc, and PBS will not allow trips to touch training either. It will just skip the trip you wanted until the one that fits around training is found, and award you that. It is very "efficient", which isn't great sometimes.



Bye Bye---General Lee

One 3-day plus a "few" 3-days is 12 days of work. How many "credits" would a big-timer heavy 767 driver expect with 12 days of work?

 

[PCL_128]

A PBS system that would be a benefit to the pilots of SWA would never get past management.

That may be true, which is the same reason we never would have seen it at AirTran. A good PBS requires lots of contractual restrictions and union control over the bidding process. If a company isn't willing to let go of some of that control, then PBS can be a nightmare (CAL's PBS for example). But if they're willing, then PBS is a far superior system.

 

[Scoot 11]

Back on topic....

Delta pilots will get a pay cut before a pay raise. It's in their DNA to roll over.

Did a Delta pilot do your wife and/or sister or something?
Do you ever have anything positive to say, or do you just enjoy being a total dickhead?

 

[waveflyer]

Not to defend tank scoot- but I think dalpa owes the industry a few positives before we get off their back after rolling over on 90 seaters,
I do wish you good luck and support you standing strong and leapfrogging SWA and continued reduction of rj's -

 

[slaquer5]

Back on topic....

Delta pilots will get a pay cut before a pay raise. It's in their DNA to roll over.

Welcome back,

 

[Lear70]

Did a Delta pilot do your wife and/or sister or something?
Do you ever have anything positive to say, or do you just enjoy being a total dickhead?

It's Tanker Clown...

Throwing mud is a time-honored FlightInfo tradition, as is flaming just to incite people to irritation (like InstructorDude).

After a while, you figure out who they are and just post around them...

 

[Scoot 11]

Not to defend tank scoot- but I think dalpa owes the industry a few positives before we get off their back after rolling over on 90 seaters,
I do wish you good luck and support you standing strong and leapfrogging SWA and continued reduction of rj's -

I'm not disagreeing with you on the scope issue, but pay wise? I don't think so. Up until 2004 Southwest was lagging terribly in the pay department, and has only then been the best paid legacy.
It would really be interesting to see what the Southwest pilots would do in the face of bankruptcy. And before anyone starts slamming me, save it. I'm only speaking hypothetically. Only reason I say this is because everyone wants the other guys to "take one for the team," until it's their turn. Just look at how it was when Us Airways went int BK (TWICE), followed by UAL, followed by DAL/NWA on the same day, followed by...............Well, you get what I mean.

 

[PCL_128]

Not to defend tank scoot- but I think dalpa owes the industry a few positives before we get off their back after rolling over on 90 seaters,

DALPA scope doesn't allow for 90-seat airplanes to be outsourced.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Not yet...

 

[Dan Roman]

Not to defend tank scoot- but I think dalpa owes the industry a few positives before we get off their back after rolling over on 90 seaters,
I do wish you good luck and support you standing strong and leapfrogging SWA and continued reduction of rj's -

Wave, if dalpa owes the industry for screwing the pooch on scope, what does SWAPA owe the industry for flying at much lower wages than the competition and working much longer hours while accepting an inferior retirement in an effort to get their airline established for most of their existence?
Right wrong or indifferent it's the upstart airlines (including SWA) undercutting the legacies that led to the attacks on our profession.

Just saying..........

 

[waveflyer]

DALPA scope doesn't allow for 90-seat airplanes to be outsourced.

F^ck me, they do too- putting 76-84 seats in it doesnt mean it's not a crj- 900

Putting 76 seats in a 757 wouldn't make it less of a mainline aircraft

 

[waveflyer]

I view that in a much different light than outsourcing, Dan- and that's nothing new-
Airline pilots get paid what they can negotiate at the time, in the case of outsourcing- instead of cutting back to deal with LCCs- senior alpa pilots allowed jets to be outsourced and let disenfranchised young or furloughed pilots take the cuts for them-
As for swa- there's never been a time when swa pilots didn't make good money- often they received stock in an growing airline (money magazines silver anniversary best stock of it's history) in leiu of pay rates- but they were still well paid and attracted excellent pilots from all areas of aviation-
But that's not my battle anyway- swa's been top of the heap since I've been here- and I'd like to see other airlines leapfrog us-
JMO

 

[Crzipilot]

Spoken as a true ALPAnoid. You seem to be throwing in your desire for pattern based bargaining everywhere you go. ALPA has their whole schlep setup as this, and is how they expect contracts to go up.

Why can't you simply negotiate a contract for what you feel you are worth, and if it isn't enough vote it down? management has to figure out how to run the airline...not you. You figure how to fly it.

Alpa's obsession with pattern based bargaining, partially a cost saving measure for them I'm sure (only on the national side), but also a time saver, so they can bill the same but yet spend less time.

Get rid of the alpa think and come up with something new...

 

[Flopgut]

As for swa- there's never been a time when swa pilots didn't make good money- often they received stock in an growing airline (money magazines silver anniversary best stock of it's history) in leiu of pay rates- but they were still well paid and attracted excellent pilots from all areas of aviation-

That's complete BS. Where were you in the 80s? SWA payrates drug everyone down. And the fact that most of us are pensionless now is just as much SWA pilot's fault as RJs are DAL (or other legacies) pilots.

The quickest and most correct way for any group to "leapfrog" SWA at this point would be for the Metroplex to get involved and give the now suffering AMR (and the rest of the legacies) the same competitive advantage SWA enjoyed from two + decades of the Wright Amendment. It would probably scale out to something like, say, SWA has to leave Dallas, or maybe all of Texas, for about 25 years. I'm guessing you are not in favor of that?

 

[Benjamin Dover]

As for swa- there's never been a time when swa pilots didn't make good money- often they received stock in an growing airline (money magazines silver anniversary best stock of it's history) in leiu of pay rates- but they were still well paid and attracted excellent pilots from all areas of aviation-
But that's not my battle anyway- swa's been top of the heap since I've been here- and I'd like to see other airlines leapfrog us-
JMO

Wave - you really need to take a break from FI. There really was a time when FOs at major airlines made captain pay at Southwest. I used to work at one. I now work at Southwest. I will most likely be an FO until I retire. But it is all good. And it's ok to say that Southwest used to make way less than everyone else in lieu of stock options. And of course those are under water, so it's now a good thing SWAPA ensured pay raises. I hope you would agree.

Please stop banging heads with those guys. Would a one month "no SWA" on FI be too much to ask???

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Wave, if dalpa owes the industry for screwing the pooch on scope, what does SWAPA owe the industry for flying at much lower wages than the competition and working much longer hours while accepting an inferior retirement in an effort to get their airline established for most of their existence?
Right wrong or indifferent it's the upstart airlines (including SWA) undercutting the legacies that led to the attacks on our profession.

Just saying..........

That's an interesting point. Many of the vehement "no scope" guys at SWA during our contract discussions actually got their PIC mins to get hired at Southwest as a result of weak scope restrictions at their previous airlines. At Delta, over 1,000 mainline pilots got furloughed while ASA and CMR grew exponentially.

So is that the answer - f*ck everyone, as long as I get my mine? Fair enough, but please don't any former regional guys toss out how hard their gig was compared to mainline pilots who got furloughed while they got their jobs and upgrades.

 

[PCL_128]

F^ck me, they do too- putting 76-84 seats in it doesnt mean it's not a crj- 900

Putting 76 seats in a 757 wouldn't make it less of a mainline aircraft

While I agree that CRJ-900s and EMB-170s should be mainline aircraft, that doesn't make 78 equal to 90. The fact is clear: DAL scope does not allow the outsourcing of 90-seat airplanes as you claimed.

 

[JOPILOT]

I have a solution; SWA should just raise their fares. End of problem

JP