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SWA to keep 717s around after all!!

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malibuVride

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Posts
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According to one of our MC guys in the lounge the other day, SWA has no plans, nor have they really even discussed plans to dump off the 717s. This seems to be reaffirmed by the MEC update and Transition bid link as well.

This is great news for many of us! I will gladly take capt on the 717 and wait for Jan 1, 2015, for a nice big raise!!

Some good news after almost a year of nastiness.
 
Personally, I'd be bidding over to the Blue side ASAP. Plans (or non-plans) change in a nanosecond in this business. Don't get stuck on a jet that could go extinct with little or no notice. 2015 is a LONG time away in the airlines.
 
My buddy ovrer there said the bid will be open for one month. So I guess that means it closes on Dec 15 or 16. He's an 11 yr 737 Captain and thinks he's going to bid 717 Captain. He's definitely looking at the dollar signs in the not to distant future.

As far as the 717s going away...that was probably just tossed around to create fear throughout the negotiations. (I kinda believed it, and I'm most likely guilty of adding fuel to the fire on that one.)
 
Just a WAG, but I'd say the economics of a two aircraft fleet will dictate how fast they go. Especially if there are engine issues...
 
Let's take a moment to look at the facts concerning the 717. Are there plans to move the sims to DAL? No! Are there plans to send the 717 to the paint shop? No! Are the 717 on the same pay scale as the 737? No!
Now I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would take the time to rationally think this through before I submit my vacancy bid.
 
bluebound said:
Let's take a moment to look at the facts concerning the 717. Are there plans to move the sims to DAL? No! Are there plans to send the 717 to the paint shop? No! Are the 717 on the same pay scale as the 737? No!
Now I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would take the time to rationally think this through before I submit my vacancy bid.
Click to expand...

Actually, to be fair, the 717s ARE on the timeline to transition to SWA. Albeit, they are nearly the last things to do so, but are on it none-the-less.
 
Fubijaakr said:
Just a WAG, but I'd say the economics of a two aircraft fleet will dictate how fast they go. Especially if there are engine issues...
Click to expand...

There is no question that one type is much more efficient than two in this case. I would say that SW would like to have the 717's gone yesterday and replaced with NG's but they need the lift and in addition to the 717's they have to replace of a bunch of classic 737's.

The reality is that they will need all their deliveries for years to just replace airplanes. Unless something changes that would allow a bunch of NG's to become available quickly I think the 717's stay for years. Not only that, if something happened with another airline in Denver and SW suddenly needed some additional airframes to take advantage of some opportunities where would they get them? There are some 717's sitting around that Boeing would LUV to get leased out cheap........if there was no other options and SW needed planes fast......I'm just saying. SW's future at this point is somewhat limited by Boeing's 737 production capability, the 737's are still selling like hotcakes.

Does anybody know what the SW 737 delivery schedule looks like including the AT delivery positions for the next few years? Can they increase it?
 
bluebound said:
Let's take a moment to look at the facts concerning the 717. Are there plans to move the sims to DAL? No! Are there plans to send the 717 to the paint shop? No! Are the 717 on the same pay scale as the 737? No!
Now I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would take the time to rationally think this through before I submit my vacancy bid.
Click to expand...


So you do admit that you are a tool? :laugh:

Just kidding, of course!
 
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Fubijaakr said:
Just a WAG, but I'd say the economics of a two aircraft fleet will dictate how fast they go. Especially if there are engine issues...
Click to expand...

I don't think Fubi is talking out of his butt on this one. He's just looking at how Alaska eliminated the MD80 fleet prior to the leases expiring. SWA could do that too. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if they did. Obviously I hope they just run the course of the leases to minimize displacements. No AT pilot can bid 737 CA until 2015, so 1 for 1 replacements would be detrimental for our transition. Now that the vote is over we are trying to see if the "other" shoe is going to drop. Or if SWA is really the people first airline it claims to be. Or once was.
 
Closes 15 Dec. (Don't know why we need 30 days to decide.) There are only 3 choices:

SWA B737 FO (707 slots)
SWA B717 Capt (518 slots)
SWA B717 FO (510 slots)

B717's to be based in ATL and TPA (numbers not determined yet).
All SWA B737 slots will go to SWA domiciles, as there will be no SWA ATL (or SEA) B737 base.

First AT aircraft and crews go to SWA in Feb. Everyone at SWA by 2014 according to the current plan. New SWA domicile to be announced late 2012. Most AT pilots will be commuters to where ever their SWA system seniority (which will not be very high) will allow them to hold. If you are an AT FO you will be lucky if you are not on reserve. If you are an AT Capt you will fare better for bidding, but you will not be able to fly with your favorite Capt until 2015 for the senior ones and much later for the junior ones). This was posted by Sherpalifter on another pilot chat board.
 
GIZMONC said:
If you are an AT Capt you will fare better for bidding, but you will not be able to fly with your favorite Capt until 2015 for the senior ones and much later for the junior ones). This was posted by Sherpalifter on another pilot chat board.
Click to expand...

???

An Airtran pilot who wants to wear four stripes can do it prior to 2015. It just has to be on the 717. Hence the spirit of this thread. Not sure what you meant in your post.
 
The 717's didn't look good with higher oil prices but that is only in light of the poor lease rates. I would bet that with SWA credit the leases will be redone allowing the airframe to work efficiently.
Days of posturing are over, we are going to be one group. Bid whatever you want. AirTran pilots ARE Southwest pilots now and even if the 717 goes away, you guys are here to stay. Welcome aboard.
 
Fact- even with high oil prices, Airtran made money flying the 717. The rapid retirement of the DC-9 and accelerated delivery of the 717 is actually what saved the company from bankruptcy. I'm assuming the current lease rates are reasonable, or Airtran would have been long gone. The engines are all owned by Rolls-Royce, so it's "power by the hour", factored into the operating cost. I expect GK to call me any day, to ask me what to do.
 
From what I was told the lease rates are horrible. They started out cheap but become more and more expensive over time. Southwest didn't know this until they looked at the books.
 
I heard the company plans to retire 31 classics next year and take delivery of 25+ 800s, so the future of the 717 looks good so far.
 
Something to think about for those who bid -717.. Once Jan '15 rolls around, the only way (original)SWA guys can bid into the airplane is if there is a domicile vacancy based on seasonal adjustments. There isn't going to be a system-wide rebid. So.. If you are on the 717 you can stay there for a LONG time even after Jan '15. Realistically, there will be a change of fewer than 10 pilots per month when it opens.
 
I'm not in the mix, don't work for either place, but:

- Isn't true that until you bid over to the 737/SWA side of the house you are technically not yet an SWA employee?

If that is the case, I would be scrambling to get off the 717 no matter WHAT the lifestyle/pay changes might be.

I'll take the " Bird in the Hand for Five Hundred, Alex."


Just a thought.


YKW
 
No. Not true.

When the 717's are converted over to the Southwest operating certificate, their pilots will undergo a 5-day training course at Southwest on the ops specs and such. On the day they start that training in Dallas, they cease to be AirTran employees, are issued Southwest I.D.'s, are Southwest employees, and are covered by the SWAPA CBA.
 
Hi Lear,

I think we just said the same thing, in different ways....Basically, until the 717's are brought into the fold, anyone flying them is not technically an SWA employee.

On what date will they be transferred to the ops.cert.?

I think that's the big question.

Even if that date was tomorrow....I'd make every effort to get on the 737 and in training TODAY.

Things happen fast in this business, as you well know.

It would seem to me there is a very good reason that the 717's are going to be operated separately for a while...

:)

YKW
 
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There are two schools of thought on this. Both assume that the 717 is not going to be eliminated in the next 3 years. Bid 737FO because you live in or close to a SWA domiclile. Bid 717CA/FO because you live in ATL or TPA/MCO. Most senior Captains will bid 717CA as long as their current commute isn't going (ie DFW). Junior Captains and senior FO'shave a harder choice comparing $$ to QOL to commute. But if SWA decides to can the 717, it really doesn't matter what you pick. AT pilots will be displaced in reverse seniority order. None of the junior guys at risk of beng furloghed at AT will be able to get in to the SWA FO class to get that protection anyway.
 
Whine Lover said:
" ... (We ) assume that the 717 is not going to be eliminated in the next 3 years."

I Rest My Case.

No further comments or questions from this Counselor....Good luck to those so Involved.


YKMKR
Click to expand...

SWA dictates how many AT pilots can make the transition to SWA on what equipment and when. The pilots of AirTran are bidding on equipment to determine where they will be based and how they will be paid. That's about as hard as it gets. The current SWA plan is to have us on their side of the partition by April 2014 (bout 2.5 years). Bottom line is there isn't enough spots for everyone to bid 737FO as you suggest. Those who are senior enough and want to go can. Thanks for your concern , though, as disingenuous as it was.
 
I certainly didn't mean it to be "disingenuous", sorry if it came across that way (?)

And, I realize that not everybody can make the move to the SWA side of the house immediately.

I'm just saying:

IF I had the Seniority, and IF I was presented with the choice of the 737 and transition sooner rather than later. I would opt for sooner.

I would try and get away from the 717 ASAP, rather than trying to strategize around QOL/Pay issues.

My first priority would be getting that SWA I.D. in my hand.

YKW
 
Whine,

No mater what happens with the 717, SL10 covers the AT guy's and girls. The have a choice to go with the airplane or stay on SWA's MSL.
 

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