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AA Contract Proposal

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ackattacker

ackattacker

Client 9
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
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Phil Lebouw on CNBC just said that AMR pilots would probably not take a pay cut now when a trip to Chapter 11 could be inevitable (where another pay cut would be likely from the lower rate). Looks like the stock is tanking due to predictions of Chap 11 in the near future...

Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't agree to anything now - I'd wait for Chap 11 to keep your current pay base as the negotiating level.
 
johnsonrod said:
Phil Lebouw on CNBC just said that AMR pilots would probably not take a pay cut now when a trip to Chapter 11 could be inevitable (where another pay cut would be likely from the lower rate). Looks like the stock is tanking due to predictions of Chap 11 in the near future...

Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't agree to anything now - I'd wait for Chap 11 to keep your current pay base as the negotiating level.
Click to expand...


This is a great point - we did this at DAL and took chap 11 cuts after we gave twice which SUCKED.
 
shon7 said:
whats the other option - chap 11?
Click to expand...

Well, let's see. We saved their a$$es from BK in 2003 with the current POS contract we have now. And today - SEVEN YEARS LATER - they're right back where they were in 2003. Of course! It's the pilots' fault!

If that doesn't spell MANAGEMENT INCOMPETENCE, I don't know what does. Everyone knows they are headed to BK anyway. I'll be darned if I'm giving one more iota to those goons. Let the Judge take it all away!

NO to Contract Offer
YES to Strike
FUPM!!
 
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aa73 said:
Well, let's see. We saved their a$$es from BK in 2003 with the current POS contract we have now. And today - SEVEN YEARS LATER - they're right back where they were in 2003. Of course! It's the pilots' fault!

If that doesn't spell MANAGEMENT INCOMPETENCE, I don't know what does.

NO to Contract Offer
YES to Strike
FUPM!!
Click to expand...

You can't have it both ways, either you can save bankruptcy with a concessionary contract (pilots do factor into bankruptcy), or a concessionary contract will not matter (pilots do not factor into the bankruptcy).

I don't have a dog in the fight. People just always spout off about how our salaries don't make or break the company. If that's true, then we also can't "save" the company by offering concessions.
 
ASA_Aviator said:
You can't have it both ways, either you can save bankruptcy with a concessionary contract (pilots do factor into bankruptcy), or a concessionary contract will not matter (pilots do not factor into the bankruptcy).

I don't have a dog in the fight. People just always spout off about how our salaries don't make or break the company. If that's true, then we also can't "save" the company by offering concessions.
Click to expand...

ASA - We gave them relief in 2003 BY PROVIDING MASSIVE CONCESSIONS. Did that give them sustained profitability? NO.
Now, 7 years later, they are in the same boat due to INCOMPETENT MANAGEMENT AND A BROKEN BUSINESS MODEL.

We could take another 50% pay cut AND THEY'D STILL LOSE MONEY!

It is not our job to save them from BK! They will file regardless of what we get, if they choose that route.
 
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Good on ya AA73..now only if the rest of the bunch would follow this lead, perhaps we can regain some semblance of a career!

Arpey will be gone if they declare IMO, adn the pilots will fare much better in BK court given their previous concessions. While I don't think APA will even come close to their requested 30%, a nice 15% across the board raise will help ease the bankruptcy pains. By the way, with them even offering up the 3-1-1-1, they paint themselves into a corner where "we can't afford any raises" loses all credibility.

In BK court, they'll;

Dump the pensions (good thing)
renogiate leases and such (good thing)
dump management (one can hope...good thing)
get scope leniency (good and bad)
 
Turn out the lights...

APA INFORMATION HOTLINE​
This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with the APA Information Hotline for Tuesday, Nov. 15.
APA LEADERSHIP LETTER TO AMR CHAIRMAN & CEO: As part of today’s session of the APA Board of Directors’ fall meeting, the Board voted 17-1 to send a letter to AMR Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Gerard Arpey concerning the state of negotiations. The 17 Board members who voted “yes” agreed to affix their names to the letter, along with the names of the APA President, Vice President and Secretary-Treasurer.
The letter reads as follows:
Dear Mr. Arpey,
As you know, our respective negotiating teams have invested a great deal of time and effort during the past several months in an effort to reach a new APA-AA collective bargaining agreement.
APA leadership shares your desire to conclude negotiations expeditiously and we remain focused on reaching an agreement that is good for our pilots and good for the airline. To that end, we have consistently expressed our desire to see the company succeed and have demonstrated our willingness to adopt contractual solutions that represent departures from longstanding tradition. Although management’s most recent proposal does not sufficiently address our pilots’ most critical negotiating priorities, we are nevertheless committed to reaching a mutually beneficial agreement through good-faith bargaining at the earliest opportunity.
We remain ready and willing to discuss creative solutions that address our respective parties’ concerns so that we may promptly conclude these talks.
That is the full text of the letter. Click here to view the formatted version.
The APA Board of Directors will reconvene at 9 a.m. tomorrow. This week’s meeting is scheduled to continue through Thursday, Nov. 17.
That’s it for today. Thanks for checking this hotline.
 
If the AA pilots worked for free next year not being paid a single dime, I believe AA would still show a loss for the year. Good luck over there.
 
17-1? Who was the lone 1?

superatr said:
APA INFORMATION HOTLINE​

This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with the APA Information Hotline for Tuesday, Nov. 15.
APA LEADERSHIP LETTER TO AMR CHAIRMAN & CEO: As part of today’s session of the APA Board of Directors’ fall meeting, the Board voted 17-1 to send a letter to AMR Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Gerard Arpey concerning the state of negotiations. The 17 Board members who voted “yes” agreed to affix their names to the letter, along with the names of the APA President, Vice President and Secretary-Treasurer.
The letter reads as follows:
Dear Mr. Arpey,
As you know, our respective negotiating teams have invested a great deal of time and effort during the past several months in an effort to reach a new APA-AA collective bargaining agreement.
APA leadership shares your desire to conclude negotiations expeditiously and we remain focused on reaching an agreement that is good for our pilots and good for the airline. To that end, we have consistently expressed our desire to see the company succeed and have demonstrated our willingness to adopt contractual solutions that represent departures from longstanding tradition. Although management’s most recent proposal does not sufficiently address our pilots’ most critical negotiating priorities, we are nevertheless committed to reaching a mutually beneficial agreement through good-faith bargaining at the earliest opportunity.
We remain ready and willing to discuss creative solutions that address our respective parties’ concerns so that we may promptly conclude these talks.
That is the full text of the letter. Click here to view the formatted version.
The APA Board of Directors will reconvene at 9 a.m. tomorrow. This week’s meeting is scheduled to continue through Thursday, Nov. 17.
That’s it for today. Thanks for checking this hotline.
Click to expand...
 
What am I missing here? Does american fly any aircraft under 125 seats? And its a very small increase in pay but how is it concessionary?
 
alaskaplt said:
What am I missing here? Does american fly any aircraft under 125 seats? And its a very small increase in pay but how is it concessionary?
Click to expand...

Well, let's see..... for starters, they are proposing a b-scale rate of $139/hr for the A319 CA... meanwhile, Spirit A319 CA $164/hr...
 
alaskaplt said:
What am I missing here? Does american fly any aircraft under 125 seats? And its a very small increase in pay but how is it concessionary?
Click to expand...

Google "what's a dollar worth" and plug in in few numbers to learn the concept why a small pay raise might actually be a paycut.

Another hidden nuclear weapon is the metrics, that AA controls, that go as far to eliminate all trip rigs and fly FAR's if their block hour per pilot goal isn't met. They control that number. They aren't even scheduling the available monthly max today. The way I figure is that I can vote for their offer, and give myself FAR's and no rigs, or I can turn it down, and get a BK Judge to give me FAR's and no trip rigs along with wiping out Seniors Management's 5% stock ownership in the ship they drove onto the rocks. I'll never pass up the opportunity to pick the deal that gives me a little more satisfaction.


$139 an hour to fly A319 Captain? Don't overlook the fact that they offered the rampers $20+/hour to clean it along with their month vacation and health care, and the offer to the Flight Attendants of $54/hour for 3 of them to work a few minutes each leg. That's $160+/hour along with their month vacation, retirement and health care. They also proposed paying the second year FO $55/hour, the new B-Scale.

AA pilots aren't the problem but will be the easy scapegoat.
 
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If you AA guys were smart you would say 'NO' to incumbent management and start a process to identify the potential new owners of AMR and work with them on a post CH11 plan.
 
I have no horse in this race-but I am all for our industry drawing a line in the sand and doing the right thing. When these execs are taking in huge salaries and bonus's and are the cause of the demise of a company-they need to go. I do not think Bankruptcy will push them out and punish them-look at the other companies that went into Ch11 and see the money they got for leaving..... As someone previous has said, it is better not to go into bankruptcy with a lower pay and bennies since the judges and the attorneys are all too stupid to look at the forest for the trees.

FYI-I am a mesaba pilot who is seeing most of our 4-5 year FO's see upgrades going to Colgan FO's with 1-2 years at the company because some attorney was an idiot when he put a minutes worth of thought into his decision.
 
No, they don't. It's all part of their game. Think about it: all the buzz in the past month about a possible TA with the pilots has originated from AMR. They created it and now they're the buzz kill. Their intent might be an obvious pre-pack Chap 11 or it might be something else. Regardless, it will be good for AMR executives and bad for employees.
 
Sounds to me like what we've all assumed all along.

They're going BK, they need to deflect the blame. Hence the very public issuance of a proposed contract with "pay increases" all over the news headlines. Then the greedy pilots will turn it down due to the onerous small print, and they'll go bankrupt all thanks to those no good greedy pilots and their out of touch union! Bonuses all around!
 

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