Article on FAA Rest Rules

[ABXbooger]

OK all, we have all flown these schedules, enough is enough. Great article pointing fingers. This NEEDS to be passed WITHOUT exemptions. I personally invite Inhofe along on any one of my flights after getting 4-6 hours of sleep, etc.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-25/pilots-flying-troops-work-long-hours-as-charter-carriers-fight-rest-rules.html

 

[thunderworm]

I like how they say 81% of the flights could not be completed under the new rules. They would be completed if the company hired more pilots and positioned them for the flight. Just a bunch of BS. No one else in the world has this horrible rest rules.

 

[cynic]

I think the market will dictate rest rules just fine. We need fewer regulations not more!

 

[ABXbooger]

The market, or a planeload of America's finest citizens not making it home after their third deployment to wherever. Thats wht will make it right!

No ones bitching that the average pax needs these common sense protections, but the soldiers, etc. must not be worth a little extra rest or hiring a few more pilots, huh?

 

[pilotyip]

There are no rest rules that can ever address this, constant interruption of sleep cycles makes you fatigued. But legally rested has nothing to do with being alert and capable of not flying when fatigued. There is no way anyone who lives on their days off on a 7AM to 11PM wake cycle with their family, can now pick up three night of 11PM to 7AM flying and not be exhausted. I have been there and done that when I used to fly the Emery sort at KDAY, if you did not sleep in the cockpit, you did not survive. The biggest sham in Part 117, is no controlled napping in the cockpit like some int’l air carriers. I am betting a result of rules changes is going to be more time in hotels on the road in order to make guarantee.

Reminds me of my first trip after IOE, 1978 TransAmerican L-188 F/O coming out of the Emery sort at KDAY at 0200. We level off and the CA looks at me and says, "Why don't you kick back and get some rest” I answered "Oh no sir, my job to be fully alert to the safety of flight at all times" (or something stupid like that). He looks at his feet and shakes his head and says "I hate you new guys, you know I am gunna catch some rest on the next leg, and I won't rest well if I think you might not be alert" "If you am not rested I am a grumpy son-of -a-bitch, and you don't want to be around me when I am grumpy" "Now about you get some rest” I pretended to rest, I was too excited about being an airline pilot. That did not last long, the not resting part, I loved being an airline pilot. There is no way anyone who lives on their days off on a 7AM to 11PM wake cycle with their family, can now pick up three night of 11PM to 7AM flying and not be exhausted.

 

[lionflyer]

Considering what $$$ these charter companies make for military contracts, I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[Birddog]

There are no rest rules that can ever address this, constant interruption of sleep cycles makes you fatigued.

Thats odd, many other countries in the world seem to have come up with rest rules that do a better job of addressing the issues of long haul flying better than the 121 supplemental rules do. It is almost like no one in this country has ever tried to do better.

 

[pilotyip]

Thats odd, many other countries in the world seem to have come up with rest rules that do a better job of addressing the issues of long haul flying better than the 121 supplemental rules do. It is almost like no one in this country has ever tried to do better.

Yes there is room for improvement, the counting double duty from 0100-0500, or something like that, is a good idea. Part of the fatigue solution is allowing controlled napping in the cockpit like foreign carriers, as opposed to uncontrolled napping in US Cockpit. However we won't allow that. But there is no way you fly around the world and continually be at peak without more rest away from home.

 

[Nevergreen]

I think the market will dictate rest rules just fine. We need fewer regulations not more!

We just need to replace the current rules with updated scientific rules.

No additional regulations needed. The current number of regs for FT/DT can remain. In fact, if the regs are made industry standard the number of FT/DT regs can be reduced.

 

[HA25]

I think the market will dictate rest rules just fine. We need fewer regulations not more!

wow, really? Just like market works well in China for dictating work weeks and work days... maybe you're right. /sigh

 

[cynic]

We just need to replace the current rules with updated scientific rules.

No additional regulations needed. The current number of regs for FT/DT can remain. In fact, if the regs are made industry standard the number of FT/DT regs can be reduced.

So called science by so called scientists will tell us nothing some good ol common sense can't. WWII pilots could fly for hours without complaining. Do you want us to be communist?

 

[HA25]

So called science by so called scientists will tell us nothing some good ol common sense can't. WWII pilots could fly for hours without complaining. Do you want us to be communist?

So now we're in a state of world war?

you're (in the truest meaning of the word), an idiot.

 

[HA25]

So called science by so called scientists will tell us nothing some good ol common sense can't. WWII pilots could fly for hours without complaining. Do you want us to be communist?

btw, I love how you're lecturing a 747 pilot who ACTUALLY flies all over the world, into Afghanistan and far flung places on 20+ hour duty day flights... meanwhile you're flying bugsmashers...

get some real experience and then come back with an intelligent response.

 

[Victor Meldrew]

btw, I love how you're lecturing a 747 pilot who ACTUALLY flies all over the world, into Afghanistan and far flung places on 20+ hour duty day flights... meanwhile you're flying bugsmashers...

get some real experience and then come back with an intelligent response.

Well said!

 

[Redtailer]

So called science by so called scientists will tell us nothing some good ol common sense can't. WWII pilots could fly for hours without complaining. Do you want us to be communist?

And the accident rate for airliners post WWII was what again?

 

[GogglesPisano]

Cynic's sarcasm meter is off the scale.

 

[HA25]

Cynic's sarcasm meter is off the scale.

if that's the case, then my sincerest apologies to him.

 

[GittinFatter]

I've been in the non-sched world my whole career. Both PAX and cargo. While much of the flying is scheduled, much is not! One set of rules is not the answer! Supplemental carriers DO provide a service to the world that sched pax and cargo operations do not. We do need some new rules, but United airlines rules do not mix well with our types of operations. Wars and natural/manmade disasters do not always happen at 8am eastern time. When a major pax carrier shucks and engine in Peru, who gets called to bring them the spare?? "Oh sorry, we can't do it right now, our boys need more sleep!" I really don't want to layover in some parts of the world that we fly too. I will gladly fly an extra hour or two so I don't have to lay over in Somalia.
You can build two different support structures for a bridge, that will be the same height and strength as each other, and be as SAFE as each other;but be different.

 

[pilotyip]

I've been in the non-sched world my whole career. Both PAX and cargo. While much of the flying is scheduled, much is not! One set of rules is not the answer! Supplemental carriers DO provide a service to the world that sched pax and cargo operations do not. We do need some new rules, but United airlines rules do not mix well with our types of operations. Wars and natural/manmade disasters do not always happen at 8am eastern time. When a major pax carrier shucks and engine in Peru, who gets called to bring them the spare?? "Oh sorry, we can't do it right now, our boys need more sleep!" I really don't want to layover in some parts of the world that we fly too. I will gladly fly an extra hour or two so I don't have to lay over in Somalia.
You can build two different support structures for a bridge, that will be the same height and strength as each other, and be as SAFE as each other;but be different.

thank you for a nice touch of reality in a chase for perfection in one set of rules

 

[lionflyer]

I've been in the non-sched world my whole career. Both PAX and cargo. While much of the flying is scheduled, much is not! One set of rules is not the answer! Supplemental carriers DO provide a service to the world that sched pax and cargo operations do not. We do need some new rules, but United airlines rules do not mix well with our types of operations. Wars and natural/manmade disasters do not always happen at 8am eastern time. When a major pax carrier shucks and engine in Peru, who gets called to bring them the spare?? "Oh sorry, we can't do it right now, our boys need more sleep!" I really don't want to layover in some parts of the world that we fly too. I will gladly fly an extra hour or two so I don't have to lay over in Somalia.
You can build two different support structures for a bridge, that will be the same height and strength as each other, and be as SAFE as each other;but be different.

Agreed! But there has to some changes. 12hrs flight time, the "oh you have a flight engineer so you can stay on duty indefinitely", or "you have a business class seat for your DH to Hong Kong thats only half duty" BS needs to go.

 

[HA25]

I've been in the non-sched world my whole career. Both PAX and cargo. .

As which, Chief Pilot or DO?

 

[thunderworm]

What about the supps that fly regular scheduled service for some other airline hauling those pax? Does the rule still not apply because they are a supp and not a domestic although the supps are carrying the same pax? When is a life worth more or less? Is a pax life worth more than a pilots or other crew member? These are the questions I ask myself when people say there should be separate rules for different kinds or operations. I get that the operations can be completely different and some companies will benefit from a more relaxed set of rest rules, but nothing that can't be fixed by hiring more pilots and being more efficient with the ones they have.

 

[HA25]

@thunderworm.... you are onto something. I think anyone that thinks there should be two separate rules with regards to something as critical as rest in operating airplanes needs to get their head examined and possibly stand to lose their medical due to mental issues... the very idea that it's not safe to do it for the one, but its safe to do it for the other is truly insane.

 

[GittinFatter]

I'll keep this short.
I never said the current rules should stay. God knows we need some new and better rules, but the same rules for all airlines is not the answer.

 

[tailwindz]

I've been in the non-sched world my whole career. Both PAX and cargo. While much of the flying is scheduled, much is not! One set of rules is not the answer! Supplemental carriers DO provide a service to the world that sched pax and cargo operations do not. We do need some new rules, but United airlines rules do not mix well with our types of operations. Wars and natural/manmade disasters do not always happen at 8am eastern time. When a major pax carrier shucks and engine in Peru, who gets called to bring them the spare?? "Oh sorry, we can't do it right now, our boys need more sleep!" I really don't want to layover in some parts of the world that we fly too. I will gladly fly an extra hour or two so I don't have to lay over in Somalia.
You can build two different support structures for a bridge, that will be the same height and strength as each other, and be as SAFE as each other;but be different.

How will/can these new rules be bad? "IF" the crews are augmented and the companies install Class A (bunks) rest facilities we can continue to schedule pretty much as we do today.

So, you must be against more pilot jobs, more rest, more comfortable facilities on board.

I think I understand now, this is really about management bonuses and golden parachutes.

 

[spitfire1500]

never mind.....

 

[cessnapilot]

There are no rest rules that can ever address this, constant interruption of sleep cycles makes you fatigued.

Just not true. You can address the issue. You might still be tired, but a lot less tired if you're not allowed to fly 4 legs in the middle of the night. Shorten the max duty period if on the back side of the clock. Rules can address the issue or make it worse.

 

[HA25]

Just not true. You can address the issue. You might still be tired, but a lot less tired if you're not allowed to fly 4 legs in the middle of the night. Shorten the max duty period if on the back side of the clock. Rules can address the issue or make it worse.

you're wasting your time, management pilots don't understand science based rule making.

 

[cessnapilot]

you're wasting your time, management pilots don't understand science based rule making.

I know the deck is stacked against us, but my point was that we can be our worst enemy. I've read how UAL rules won't work for non-sked and it's a different business, etc, etc. This from people on the board here. Are you kidding me? The bravado of "who brings UAL an engine when they shuck one in Peru" is laughable. Hire more pilots and get adequate rest. It's possible. Yes it costs money and yes big business will be against it, but that doesn't mean we should help them in their argument.

but you're right... I'm wasting my time nothing else to do though...

 

[ABXbooger]

What happened to "one level of safety"? 20 years ago the 135 ops were forced to begin complying with 121 rules, and one level of safety was the word. All the regionals cried that there was no way they could be competitive, how has that worked out for them?

This is SCIENCE people, incontrovertible truths compiled by a governmental agency that has historically been reactive versus proactive. No matter what you believe do you expect us to alter our biology?