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What could NJA order super-mid

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BentOver

BentOver

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Posts
1,133
Breakdown of companies and product possibilites...

Cessna- Ten (probably NJA's most popular a/c), Sovereign... The new one they just announced won't be ready for 5 years.

Hawker- 4000??? Didn't work so well the first time. Plus NJA cancelled a huge order in 2009

Dassault- Don't offer a super mid cabin a/c

Gulfstream- apparently out of the running/did not bid... G200/250?

Bombardier- Lear 85..ready by 2013, already starting production. CL-300, probably the frontrunner and best product in this category.

Embrear- Legacy 450/500....could be a good choice, however it's a new design and comes with new plane problems.

Opinions? additions?

Also, any ideas on what NJA could/would possibly dispose of along with a purchase order? They got rid of the Ultra's and -800's with the last two announcements... What's next? -400's? And......?
 
BentOver said:
Breakdown of companies and product possibilites...

Cessna- Ten (probably NJA's most popular a/c), Sovereign... The new one they just announced won't be ready for 5 years.

Hawker- 4000??? Didn't work so well the first time. Plus NJA cancelled a huge order in 2009

Dassault- Don't offer a super mid cabin a/c

Gulfstream- apparently out of the running/did not bid... G200/250?

Bombardier- Lear 85..ready by 2013, already starting production. CL-300, probably the frontrunner and best product in this category.

Embrear- Legacy 450/500....could be a good choice, however it's a new design and comes with new plane problems.

Opinions? additions?

Also, any ideas on what NJA could/would possibly dispose of along with a purchase order? They got rid of the Ultra's and -800's with the last two announcements... What's next? -400's? And......?
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It's a crapshoot. Those Netjets F2000s are starting to look a bit worn and used.... With the previous Phenom 300 order, I'll bet Netjets gets a nice discount on the Legacy 500. That looks like a great airplane (although with new-airplane bugs). The FBW could be interesting in that aircraft.

I guess the G280 could also be possible given Netjets' current use of the GTOOUGLY. The CL300 would be an excellent addition but it is already used by XOJet and Flexjet - why join the crowd? Won't Netjets try to differentiate its product offering with something newer and more high-tech?
 
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In a nutshell, no, IMO, they'll go with whoever gives the the best bang for the buck....

I've heard the G200 are well liked by owners, but I've also read that Gulfstream may or may not be in the running this time?

Agree about the Legacy. Embrear wants in the business market and NJA is the largest player. Probably get a sweet deal. But the new airplane smell sometimes stinks??

When you look at it there really isn't that many products to choose from.
 
BentOver said:
In a nutshell, no, IMO, they'll go with whoever gives the the best bang for the buck....

I've heard the G200 are well liked by owners, but I've also read that Gulfstream may or may not be in the running this time?

Agree about the Legacy. Embrear wants in the business market and NJA is the largest player. Probably get a sweet deal. But the new airplane smell sometimes stinks??

When you look at it there really isn't that many products to choose from.
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Both Embraer and Gulfstream are probably willing to discount heavily to get their respective aircraft into the mainstream - and fractional operators is one way to do it. How will they recoup their big investments without big deals? I have to admit that the G280 looks pretty interesting with the new cockpit technology and the proven appeal of the G200 interior for current customers.

The Embraer Legacy 500 will be a technology leader for its size, but you can bet Netjets would absolutely REQUIRE performance guarantees backed up by serious cash for penalties. Netjets won't want to risk its reputation - but a great discount and superior technology (to highlight in marketing to sell more shares or Marquis cards) might help. While Embraer probably offered a good discount for the Phenom 300s, I bet that Netjets is also using this opportunity to test Embraer's ability to back-up its promises and hit its development timelines. Netjets could be testing this relationship to see if a Legacy 500 order would potentially work down the road. I've looked at the Legacy 500 and it is going to be an awesome aircraft for both the pilots and the passengers (if the new-aircraft bugs are worked out early).
 
I doubt if this is a problem for NJ, but there are several countries (especially in the middle east) where you cannot operate a G200/100/Astra/Westwind.
 
Turbine DC3T,converted for Pax, good for 2500 foot unimproved strips, pressurization is an option, luxury interior for 15 pax, HTO will be like JFK for this ship.
 
Super mid will b the F2000S or CL300. Both are the same $24mil price tag. Auto throttles and IRS are available with the 2000. Neither of which can be had on the 300 unless Bombardier plans to spice it up some. Of course all bets could be off if HB gives the H4000 away at cost.
 
Sammy said:
Super mid will b the F2000S or CL300. Both are the same $24mil price tag. Auto throttles and IRS are available with the 2000. Neither of which can be had on the 300 unless Bombardier plans to spice it up some. Of course all bets could be off if HB gives the H4000 away at cost.
Click to expand...

Interesting... cancel order only to re-purchase at a much cheaper price.... And it would only cost NJA the cancellation fee. Hawker is hurting (along with Cessna)... So crazy it just might work!! I still think the -300 will be it, as long as Bombardier gives a sweet deal. Which I think they did already with the Globals.

Of course, as far as I know, NJA already has the training platform for the 4000. And already has guys typed etc.. Would make for an easy start-up to training. Save some $$ there.
 
rajflyboy said:
It will be interesting to see if the Legacy 500 can remotely compete with the Challenger 300's
Click to expand...

Remotely, maybe. The CL has a bigger cabin and more range. The pax could give a flip what is up front. The CL is what, 300 in numbers and as such is proven. The emb, zero history of ac this size. What's the risk of another H4000?
Fbw may appeal to flight depts, but in the frax, no one paying the bills cares. Plus, in the high utilization frax, what happens when Gunfighter is in Sheboygan and gets some fault he has never seen before on a brand new plane from a new manufacturer? He'll pin the gear and head back to the Hilton bar. :)
 
hammer2 said:
Damn straight! There's one too many fractionals with the CL 300.
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That's my point too. How would Netjets differentiate itself in that category if it uses the same aircraft as Flexjet and XOJet? What advantages could Netjets claim for that aircraft in that scenario?

Again, both the Phenom 300 order and the Global order were relative surprises. The Global is a proven aircraft (for the most part), but the Phenom 300 is still relatively new. Given the previous surprises, a Legacy 500 order (at a steep discount) wouldn't shock me. The marketing alone related to the latest and newest technology would be a differentiator for the Legacy 500. Marketing differentiation is a important in a commodity market (and the fractional market is becoming more commoditized with similar offerings and pricing).

I agree the Falcon 2000S would be another good choice given Netjet's history with the F2000 and the updated technology.
 
hammer2 said:
Damn straight! There's one too many fractionals with the CL 300.
Click to expand...

Yeah why would you want to have a plane people like and was designed for the rigors of fractional operation?

Ask GVFlyer about the 300.

Who says there is always gonna be so many fractional operators?
 
LAZYB said:
Yeah why would you want to have a plane people like and was designed for the rigors of fractional operation?

Ask GVFlyer about the 300.
Click to expand...

He said the G200 is a better all around plane than the 300. Lololol
 
A couple months ago I was a believed the super-mid size for NJA would be the CL300. Great aircraft, crews and owners rave about it. Now I'm of a different opinion. By the time NJA is able to get a CL300 program running it would be 10 year old technology. All future NJA fleets will be bigger like the Excel. How many Excels are on property, 100? How long would it take NJA to build a super-mid fleet of even 50? At least 4-5 years. Then the newest plane would be 15 year old technology.
 
208starcheck said:
A couple months ago I was a believed the super-mid size for NJA would be the CL300. Great aircraft, crews and owners rave about it. Now I'm of a different opinion. By the time NJA is able to get a CL300 program running it would be 10 year old technology. All future NJA fleets will be bigger like the Excel. How many Excels are on property, 100? How long would it take NJA to build a super-mid fleet of even 50? At least 4-5 years. Then the newest plane would be 15 year old technology.
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Who cares about the technology-the pax? Are you saying there won't be follow on iterations/updates to the CL300, for example? For a super-mid, there's not much you can improve on the performance. Besides, flight options is growing with some pretty old technology. They've doubled the X fleet in the past 2 years. Someone's voting with their feet. All the average frax cares about is a decent refurbed cabin, throw in wifi, make it cheaper than the competition and blammo, you have stability.
 
gunfyter said:
damn right .... Thats why it needs to be the 2000S
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Just curious what the differences are between the LX and S? Other than 2000 pounds less fuel and a 1200 pound lower GW, the S appears to be the same plane. There must be other differences, or how could they justify the 6 million dollar difference in price? Both seem like great airplanes, but the LX is a bit pricy for it's size.
 
X-rated said:
Just curious what the differences are between the LX and S? Other than 2000 pounds less fuel and a 1200 pound lower GW, the S appears to be the same plane. There must be other differences, or how could they justify the 6 million dollar difference in price? Both seem like great airplanes, but the LX is a bit pricy for it's size.
Click to expand...

It is the same plane ... just cannot go as far and it has a cookie cutter interior. No that it matters for netjets.

The LX is an international aircraft with an international price. S was designed to compete against the CL-300. Apples to Apples the S blows the CL-300 out of the water. Especially when you look at avionics, pressurization and cabin size.

Not that my opinion counts or Net Jets even cares, but the S would be the best replacement for the 2000.
 
G100driver said:
It is the same plane ... just cannot go as far and it has a cookie cutter interior. No that it matters for netjets.

The LX is an international aircraft with an international price. S was designed to compete against the CL-300. Apples to Apples the S blows the CL-300 out of the water. Especially when you look at avionics, pressurization and cabin size.

Not that my opinion counts or Net Jets even cares, but the S would be the best replacement for the 2000.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. It looks like they threw in auto brakes too. Definitely an impressive looking airplane especially at that price.
 
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I really think, and hope, that atleast 25-50 orders will be for the upgraded Citation TEN... The reason is that it is, for the most part, the most popular and most utilized fleet.. (Based on when we were there)..

The current X's are also between 5-10 years old. And outdated tech. wise.

What else at NJA is considered super mid? G200, X, Sovereign....?) I was under the impression that most, besides the X, were somewhat newer airframes....

I also assumed that the Globals were replacements for the G's and 2000's. Why would they order more 2000S's if they have the Globals on the way?

I assumed that the -300's (or -85's,legacies) were planned replacements for types such as the Sovereigns, G200's...?


Also youtubed the Phenom 300... I think it's will be a nice replacement for the Ultra's, -400's.. Much nicer cabin, amenities, single point refueling and for us a nicer cockpit. Should sell well hopefully.
 
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