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Hawker dude

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Posts
182
Can someone please tell me how NJA operates at a ratio of just above 5 pilots per aircraft and the 4 aircraft carriers above us by size operate at 15 pilots per aircraft.

how does this make sense? of course we can't get an answer from management or the union.
 
Because airlines staff multiple crews per plane per day. Fractional pilots usually keep the same plane all week.
 
The numbers at NJA are currently closer to 6 per airplane and only required to be at 5 per the contract. We are actually quite fat compared to the vast majority of fractionals and way fat compared to charter and owner-operators. I would sure love to see NJA staffed at a higher level since I'm working my behind off on all my work tours, but I doubt we will see that any time soon. The only reason we are over 5 is all the guys and gals in training as they get displaced. I sure hope they don't figure out how to get 3000 hours or even 2000 hours a year out of fractional jets because if they do, it would probably be with much less staffing than the airlines and a lot more work for us.
 
Another major difference is the airlines work mx on their planes each night and keep them operational much easier than NetJets does. It is not unusual for half the planes in any one fleet to be down for mx each day at NetJets.
 
Is NJA still the place to be? Good QOL, happy crews? I ask b/c I ran into a NJA the other day and whilst chatting, I got the impression it wasn't so rosy anymore. Couple of years ago I was actually looking at jumping ship from AA when it looked like I was furlough fodder.
 
NJA is a good job, but it is currently shrinking and won't be hiring for a looooooong time. The guys and gals on the bottom are nervous and management is willfully breaking the contract more and more. It was a much nicer environment when the union and company played well together, but I still like the job quite a bit. That doesn't mean I'm not looking to see what else is out there since I don't really trust my job to survive forever. It is a vastly different job than AA and good in it's own ways. Knowing what we know now, I'm sure you won't be giving it a second thought since the retirements at AA will be coming fast a furious soon so you probably won't have to slave too much longer before your a captain (almost certainly you will be a captain well before you could even get hired at NJA).
 
Thanks, jtf... nah, no plans of leaving AA, just gathering the info for my up and coming aviation friends who constantly ask me for advice on where to go. Hope it works out for you guys, I know tons of people who went there when Indy Air went under.

73, ex Blue Ridge
 
I would be willing to bet that lots of current NJA pilots end up at AA whenever AA starts hiring again. Things should get interesting in the next few years.
 
Jtf did a nice job summarizing the current conditions at NJA. Im dangling at the bottom of the list wondering what the future holds. Quite frankly I struggled with this place during the first couple of years but have slowly grown to enjoy it. I consider it a fairly decent place to work although I have undergone a slight recalibration of my expectations. We continue to shed older airframes as they are tied to purchase agreements. I think our current management feels this is the quickest and most cost effective way to modernize the fleet. The new stuff doesn't theoretically arrive until 4qtr 2012. So there will be a period where NJA will operate it's business on fewer than 400 airframes. There are plenty around this place that feel that the fleet number will never grow to previous levels to avoid being saddled with owners that can marginally afford the service. I'm not one of those in that camp however. I think it's their intention to grow this place again, but it's been pretty tough sledding with the economy and all. Relations with our association (and by extension us) aren't well as management deploys it's strategy to marginalize our leadership. So moderate turbulence through the first half of 2012 at best.
 
The marginal owners lost will not be the ones "that can marginally afford the service". To paraphrase WB -- "price is what you pay, value is what you receive". While NJ price has remained the same (actually increased), over the past 2 years many have perceived (accurately in my opinion) that "value" has decreased substantially. And "value" is 100% subjective. Just look at hard statistics on the number of NJ owners for other providers vs. the number of other frax provider owners leaving to come to NJ. It seems to me that internally NJ is spending much time spinning statistics to make it seem like recoveries are great, owners are happy, new owners are coming in , and few are leaving, than actually devoting time to make sure real owners don't leave.
 
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Hopefully management will open their eyes and ears and listen to what the customers and crew have to say about how they are ultimately treating the customers and driving them off. They have started to pick up steam on efforts to refurbish the interiors and exteriors after Sokol cut those expenses. They are also restocking the spare parts that Sokol got rid of or just let empty. They are also working with the service centers to have more mechanics on staff so that airplanes get fixed quicker and so that airplanes are ready to fly and recover quickly if needed rather than sit waiting to be fixed. The aircraft availability became a huge issue during the busy season when we got down to nearly 40 percent of the fleet sitting and waiting to be fixed. They have reduced it to about 30 percent on average, but this is still nowhere near where it was before Sokol took over (around 10 t0 15 percent). This needs to have continued improvement if we want to stop jerking around the customers and driving them off.
 
Hawker dude said:
Can someone please tell me how NJA operates at a ratio of just above 5 pilots per aircraft and the 4 aircraft carriers above us by size operate at 15 pilots per aircraft.

how does this make sense? of course we can't get an answer from management or the union.
Click to expand...

Major domestic carries and Flag carriers average 12 to 16 hours PER DAY of aircraft productivity on EVERY airframe. Non-sched can operate with much fewer bodies as the daily productivity is much less.

Ultra
 
aa73 said:
Is NJA still the place to be? Good QOL, happy crews? I ask b/c I ran into a NJA the other day and whilst chatting, I got the impression it wasn't so rosy anymore. Couple of years ago I was actually looking at jumping ship from AA when it looked like I was furlough fodder.
Click to expand...

Just a few short years ago, NJ was a GREAT place to work.

If you're a Captain, it's still a Good place to work (not great), but if you're an FO, I'd say it's merely an OK place to work.
 
jetlag7 said:
Just a few short years ago, NJ was a GREAT place to work.

If you're a Captain, it's still a Good place to work (not great), but if you're an FO, I'd say it's merely an OK place to work.
Click to expand...

Exactly. FO pay is marginal with no hope of upgrading and a real possibility of being furloughed. The exodus is just at beginning stages, but it is beginning. I am heading back to the airlines shortly.
 
RideandDrive said:
Exactly. FO pay is marginal with no hope of upgrading and a real possibility of being furloughed. The exodus is just at beginning stages, but it is beginning. I am heading back to the airlines shortly.
Click to expand...


Any idea where to?

I agree, by the time NJA even could possibly recall..(doubtful) anyone that went to an airline would either be upgraded at that airline OR be a senior FO making more than NJA and working less days, with travel benefits... Only big deal about NJA was the homebasing, 401k match and med. benefits..

But to be honest, my small 135 outfit now has similar med. plans.. We pay $240 out of pocket, but the co-pay is $0.. so it is nearly as good.

Homebasing...well now we'll have to possibly commute..that's life..
 
Heading back to American. Gonna miss the basing, but the money difference is too great.

Netjets pay was never designed for career first officers.
 
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RideandDrive said:
Heading back to American. Gonna miss the basing, but the money difference is too great.

Netjets pay was never designed for career first officers.
Click to expand...

Congrats and best of luck... I've heard that a few places will be losing guys back to AA.. (Well NJA and JetBlue, I think that's a few or a couple??!)

I'd go back to AA and never look back.

For me, the airlines stopped hiring just as I was leaving the regional world behind. Netjets was a decent consolation prize, enhanced by IBB (I was hired before IBB), but I have realized I'm an airline guy and really hope to get back into 121.

One could be at NJA or better pay within 2 or 3 years of airline service. It's just first year airline pay that is a difficult pill to swallow.
 
I'd let them get me current and buy me another type. After that, we'll see ya later.....
 
CE750Driver said:
What is the average percentage difference from Captain to FO at the majors? What is it at NJA?

Just askin.......
Click to expand...


Good thinking. 60-65% The problem is that the captain pay is watered down, thus driving the FO pay down. FO pay tops out at year 10 with zero COLA. The FO's that are left will all be at that mark in two/three years.

Can you make a living as a FO at NJA? You bet you can. Is 10+ years in the right seat of a Cessna or Beechjet a career stopper? Absolutely.
 
When we extend the CBA ... maybe they will throw in an LOA that after you top out the FO scale at 10 years ... everyone moves over to the Captains pay scale? Comes with the 10 year wings...

Makes sense ... You are on year 11 but no appropriate pay on our scale ... you default to the only other option.
 
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That would be great. That would also shock the heck out of me. This management team is all about saving money and that would definitely cost. I would rate it more likely that they look for more ways of downgrading current captains. We have already had 2 SICs leave for AirAsia and my guess is we start to see a lot more bailing for better opportunities in the near future. I know I am looking far and wide. I really prefer this job, but the companies latest forecast through 2021 most likely would still have me in the right seat and while I would gladly stay for captain pay, I don't see the union using much negotiating capital to get a few hundred SICs captain pay. I'm sure the union will get some improvement for SICs eventually, but most likely it will just be scales that go as far as the captains scales for years of service. By the time even that is negotiated I'd probably be instantly at the top of those rates and stuck there for a while too. I hope I'm wrong and you are right, Gunfyter. That would make my career prospects vastly better.
 
gunfyter said:
When we extend the CBA ... maybe they will throw in an LOA that after you top out the FO scale at 10 years ... everyone moves over to the Captains pay scale? Comes with the 10 year wings...

Makes sense ... You are on year 11 but no appropriate pay on our scale ... you default to the only other option.
Click to expand...

I bet NJA and the Union will do something like what you are suggesting, making the decision to stay at NetJets much more palatable. I would stay anyway, if I were an FO here. I think. The airlines are so unstable historically, they just don't seem a good bet compared to NetJets.
 
G4dude said:
I bet NJA and the Union will do something like what you are suggesting, making the decision to stay at NetJets much more palatable. I would stay anyway, if I were an FO here. I think. The airlines are so unstable historically, they just don't seem a good bet compared to NetJets.
Click to expand...

With all respect, how can you say you would stay anyway if you were an FO? You are a Captain on the largest airplane NJ currently flies, that also happens to have trips to the most exotic locations and you have an F/A to take care of the cabin and the owners (not to say that the pilots don't, but your job on an attended airplane is different than a non-attended airplane), so I'm sure you can see how someone would think its pretty bold and arrogant to say what you would do if you were making 25% less. Your NJ experience is likely very different than someone who was hired in 2007/8. I am furloughed and loved my job at NJ, but I don't know if I can afford to sit in the right seat of a non-APU small jet 10 years. It would be great if they just upgraded FO pay to Captain rates after 10 years, but its not gonna happen. What incentive would NJ have to raise our pay by so much when they can just give 3% or COLA until we upgrade?
 
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Heck, even if they put us at the bottom of the Captain's payscales in year 11 (an 11-year FO is paid year 1 Captain wages) that might slow the exodus a bit...

Sent from my EVO 4G using Tapatalk Pro for Android
 

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