starting a 135 trip part 91 and ending 91

[msuspartans24]

Is it legal to start a 135 trip 91, and end 91?

example: leave home base empty part 91 to pick up pax. then fly pax 135 to wherever, drop off, then fly back home part 91 empty.

I'm not concerned about flight time issues, more the 14 hour duty issue. basically would doing the first and last leg part 91 relieve you from any duty time?

I was under the impression that once you report for a 135 trip regardless if the first or last leg is empty or done 91 it still doesn't allow you to take away from your 14 hour duty time limitation.

 

[340drvr]

It's always been my understanding that, in your example, the first 91 leg counts against the duty time, and the last leg would not.

 

[landlover]

the answer will differ FSDO to FSDO, although it shouldn't.

 

[ackattacker]

I think you'll get some argument about the last leg, but at least in the past "last leg" 91 was generally considered legal so long as you volunteer to do it. The company can't require it.

The first leg has *always* counted against duty time AFAIK. The way to interpret it is to remember that the regulations don't regulate duty time... they regulate rest time. The first leg may not be 135 but it's not rest either.

 

[msuspartans24]

That's pretty much what I thought, however like landlover said it seems like it differs from FSDO to FSDO. I should've gone to law school after I did my flight training so I could figure out the regs

 

[ackattacker]

Beyond legality, there's also safety to consider when you are pushing your duty day that far.

But legally speaking, you get busted under the 135 regs when you *accept an assignment* during which you will no longer have the *required rest*.

That first part 91 leg is NOT rest since you were not free from all duty and responsibility. It counts.

The last part 91 leg is not an assignment so long as you just happen to volunteer to do it. More in the nature of a personal commute. You do have to be careful with how it is presented. If it's on your trip sheet or whatever you use then it could be illegal. It can't be "assigned" to you. If at all possible, it's best to avoid this sort of thing because some Fed might find reason to bust you and could potentially make it stick.

 

[100-1/2]

135.263(c) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember AND PROVIDES TO TRANSPORT THE CREWMEMBER TO AN AIRPORT AT WHICH HE IS TO SERVE ON A FLIGHT AS A CREWMEMBER, OR FROM AN AIRPORT AT WHICH HE WAS RELIEVED FROM DUTY TO RETURN TO HIS HOME STATION, is NOT CONSIDERED PART OF A REST PERIOD.

Whether certificate holder is buying airline tickets or PROVIDING Company aircraft to transport crewmembers from an airport where an assignment has endind to his home station, any assigned rest period calculation for the purpose of initiating the next assigned duty period does not begin before that crewmember arrives at his home station.

Case in point: it is possible (inadvisable and regular occurrence for sleazy 135 ops) for a crewmember to end a 135 leg encompassing a 14-hour "assigned duty period" where 8/10 Hours of flight time were scheduled but did not include the 3-4 hour Part 91 Leg needed to return the crew to his home station.

Point #1 - That crew cannot initiate the next assigned "Duty Period" prior to the 10+ hour rest requirement (should the 8/10 hour Flight time rule be exceeded) BEGINNING AFTER HIS RETURN TO HIS HOME STATION.

Point #2 - It would be pointless to begin ANY Duty Period where ANY ASSIGNED FLIGHT TIME will exceed the 8/10 Hour Rule looking BACK DURING THE PREVIOUS 24-HOUR PERIOD.

Interpret how you want. Everyone else does. FAA Hopes in the wake of Buffalo, a New NPRM will add clarity and even more restrictions to Flight Duty Time Limits for 121/135 to make Aviation "More Safe". More rules and more restrictions while the FAA doesn't even enforce current regulation or properly surveil operators' records for accuracy and consistency with Flight Plans and Tracking Data? A Crew Log review and comparison with Personal Logbooks at 293/441 Checks would easily uncover these inaccuracies and bring operators and crew inline with regulations forcing pilots to decline some trips and operators to hire sufficient staff for demand or decline some customers' requests.

100-1/2

 

[pilotyip]

All flight time with a company is duty and flight time. However as per above different rules apply with engaged in Rev and Non-Rev flights.

 

[FO4life]

according to our new POI. if we are in the plane or away from home and not in a hotel, we are on duty, no excuse. he is not hounding us on our duty logs as much as to prove on paper and or log that we were on REST or on a known ahead of time, day off. he doesn't go for the if we are not on duty we are on rest or day off.
great for pilots but not for managment.
its nice to know that 4 days a month I can have drink with out looking at the phone the whole time wondering if i'm gonna get called.

 

[pilotyip]

according to our new POI. if we are in the plane or away from home and not in a hotel, we are on duty, no excuse. he is not hounding us on our duty logs as much as to prove on paper and or log that we were on REST or on a known ahead of time, day off. he doesn't go for the if we are not on duty we are on rest or day off.
great for pilots but not for managment.
its nice to know that 4 days a month I can have drink with out looking at the phone the whole time wondering if i'm gonna get called.

Beer test, if you can not have a beer, assuming 8 hr rule, you are not in 135 rest. Don't work for that guy find a new job.

 

[FO4life]

yea I know but baby steps.

 

[DUATS]

My interpretation has always been that the 91 leg on the end must be completed within the duty time requirement - but can exceed the flight time requirement. The 91 leg prior to a 135 leg counts for both, period.

 

[pilotgolfer]

My interpretation has always been that the 91 leg on the end must be completed within the duty time requirement - but can exceed the flight time requirement. The 91 leg prior to a 135 leg counts for both, period.

I don't think the duty time matters once you go 91.

 

[ackattacker]

I don't think the duty time matters once you go 91.

Correct, maybe. Remember that the regulations DO NOT regulate duty time. You can be on duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. You just can't *fly* under 135 unless you can look back and see the required rest and time off. The question is whether that 91 flight is treated the same as a 135 flight, and that's where interpretations get tricky.

For example, you could finish your 135 trip and the company could assign you to do some paper work, wash the plane, etc. That's duty time, not rest, but it's not illegal because you're not flying. No problem going over your duty time in that example.

 

[jman90]

I don't think the duty time matters once you go 91.

As long as the rest lookback for tomorrow begins after the 91 ferry instead of the 135 leg.

 

[brokeflyer]

the first 91 leg counts towards duty time. If you are done with part 135 for the day and out of duty time, you CAN fly part 91 back home if you want. Legally the company can't ASK you to fly over duty. If you do, your rest period begins when you are done flying 91/135.

So that means you go into rest AFTER the last 91 leg.

A lot of dirt bag operators will "teach" the only the stuff that counts is the 135 legs. so they will get pilots to fly a 3 hour leg to pick someone up and just dont count that.

 

[ksu_aviator]

the first 91 leg counts towards duty time. If you are done with part 135 for the day and out of duty time, you CAN fly part 91 back home if you want. Legally the company can't ASK you to fly over duty. If you do, your rest period begins when you are done flying 91/135.

Not quite. There is no rest requirement under part 91 so you can fly for 24 hours of duty if need be. So the company can ask you to do anything part 91.

So that means you go into rest AFTER the last 91 leg.

A lot of dirt bag operators will "teach" the only the stuff that counts is the 135 legs. so they will get pilots to fly a 3 hour leg to pick someone up and just dont count that.

 

[pilotyip]

Not quite. There is no rest requirement under part 91 so you can fly for 24 hours of duty if need be. So the company can ask you to do anything part 91.

they can ask, but not assign duty in access of 14 hours

 

[brokeflyer]

So the company can ask you to do anything part 91.

no they can't...they can ask, but the pilot don' have to do it. regardless of what part it is.

the only time they can do that if is ALL the flying is 91.....like a private company. but since example pilot already did a 135 flight then the clock is ticking on duty time......and that includes the last 91 leg.

 

[100-1/2]

"No Certificate Holder may Assign..."
"No Pilot may accept an assignment..."

You are both screwed. Difference is their Certificate is assessed a Civil Penalty while yours is suspended and/or revoked.

100-1/2