starting a 135 trip part 91 and ending 91

[brokeflyer]

the first 91 leg counts towards duty time. If you are done with part 135 for the day and out of duty time, you CAN fly part 91 back home if you want. Legally the company can't ASK you to fly over duty. If you do, your rest period begins when you are done flying 91/135.

So that means you go into rest AFTER the last 91 leg.

A lot of dirt bag operators will "teach" the only the stuff that counts is the 135 legs. so they will get pilots to fly a 3 hour leg to pick someone up and just dont count that.

 

[ksu_aviator]

the first 91 leg counts towards duty time. If you are done with part 135 for the day and out of duty time, you CAN fly part 91 back home if you want. Legally the company can't ASK you to fly over duty. If you do, your rest period begins when you are done flying 91/135.

Not quite. There is no rest requirement under part 91 so you can fly for 24 hours of duty if need be. So the company can ask you to do anything part 91.

So that means you go into rest AFTER the last 91 leg.

A lot of dirt bag operators will "teach" the only the stuff that counts is the 135 legs. so they will get pilots to fly a 3 hour leg to pick someone up and just dont count that.

 

[pilotyip]

Not quite. There is no rest requirement under part 91 so you can fly for 24 hours of duty if need be. So the company can ask you to do anything part 91.

they can ask, but not assign duty in access of 14 hours

 

[brokeflyer]

So the company can ask you to do anything part 91.

no they can't...they can ask, but the pilot don' have to do it. regardless of what part it is.

the only time they can do that if is ALL the flying is 91.....like a private company. but since example pilot already did a 135 flight then the clock is ticking on duty time......and that includes the last 91 leg.

 

[100-1/2]

"No Certificate Holder may Assign..."
"No Pilot may accept an assignment..."

You are both screwed. Difference is their Certificate is assessed a Civil Penalty while yours is suspended and/or revoked.

100-1/2

 

[pilotyip]

"No Certificate Holder may Assign..."
"No Pilot may accept an assignment..."

You are both screwed. Difference is their Certificate is assessed a Civil Penalty while yours is suspended and/or revoked.

100-1/2

kinda agree, but that does not mean you can not make the 91 ferry your option at the end of the trip. I would prefer not to spend the night at MMIO when KLRD is only30 minutes away.

 

[TurboHonda]

kinda agree, but that does not mean you can not make the 91 ferry your option at the end of the trip. I would prefer not to spend the night at MMIO when KLRD is only30 minutes away.

Exactly! The intent was to get the plane and pilot back to home base, instead of being trip locked on the road. Then dispatch decided it should be one of their scheduling tools.

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly! The intent was to get the plane and pilot back to home base, instead of being trip locked on the road. Then dispatch decided it should be one of their scheduling tools.

you have the option of saying no

 

[100-1/2]

Yip,

My beef is with operators like Pontiac, Kidron and West Memphis that have a history of 9-11 hrs 135 to BF Nowhere and then dead-head 3 to 4 home and start another duty day <10 hours after RTB, chalking up more flight time within the 24-hour "look back" accruing 14+.

International Ops have available provision for 16 hours on a Duty Day because of Customs and other Considerations. A 0.5 Repo to a lesser-a55pit location like LRD is a no-brainer. Doing 9/11 (1/2 Pilot Crew) back to LRD; then starting another duty period 10 hours later bombing down to MMMX for another 6 to 9 hours trip to CYHM with "RTB Deadhead" back to AWM where magical leprechauns have a Pallet from Toronto waiting for the aircraft to RTB for a "fresh Crew" to go to MMSP ? Now that is ridiculous and illegal within a 24-hr period looking back. Shame on the dispatcher, Certificate Holder and the Flight Crew who accepts and flies that assignment. For the longest time I remember this has been the M.O. for Operators on the far reaches of their CHDO service areas?

Fly safe my brother, I am pulling for you guys in Belleville.

100-1/2

 

[PC12Cowboy]

if the next days flying is part 135 the rest requirement is still 10 hours for non scheduled ops from the last flight and duties of the previous day.

 

[RefugePilot]

I think once you do a 135 leg during the day you are operating under 135. All duty time is counted irrelevant of whether the last leg is part 91. You can exceed duty day requirement if the last leg is part 91 only to get you home.

My company was using 91 legs to make sure planes and pilots got home and were ready for the following morning during stormy nights. Pilots had the choice to go or not but those who flew home were expected to show on time the next morning as though the 91 flight did not happen.

Someone asked the FSDO and it was ruled the part 91 leg counted against duty time and appropriate rest time commenced after the pilot went off duty on the 91 leg. I can't imagine how any FSDO would rule any other way, especially in this time of fatigue issues in aviation in the news and legislature.

Now if they could just do something about the "transportation local in nature" clause.

 

[Rick1128]

Someone asked the FSDO and it was ruled the part 91 leg counted against duty time and appropriate rest time commenced after the pilot went off duty on the 91 leg. I can't imagine how any FSDO would rule any other way, especially in this time of fatigue issues in aviation in the news and legislature.

RP,

The FSDO can say anything they want, but it has very little bearing in front of an administrative law judge. FSDO opinions have no legal bearing. That is not their job to give interpretations of the regulations. You will notice that they will never give you an opinion in writing. There is a reason for that. The only interpretations or opinions that have any weight are those issued by FAA Legal in WRITING.

I have been through a NASIP and a RASIP at companies where the FSDO was out to shut the operator down. Both these operators had flights where the crews went over duty time. In neither case was the operator or the pilots cited for going over duty time. Some of these flight involved 135 flights over duty time. As long as the flight was planned and scheduled in a reasonable and prudent manner and the delays were beyond the control of the operator, there is no issue. A ten minute turn in Mexico doesn't hack it. But a fuel truck breaks down in front of the aircraft or the airport doesn't allow refueling operations if there is a thunderstorm anywhere in the state is viable. The delays do need to be documented with the reason.

As for the empty leg home, it really depends. Many is the time I have finished a trip at 7 or 8 AM. Do I really want to go to a hotel? Depending on where you are, it could be difficult to check-in before 2 or 3PM. So there goes a lot of your rest time. Plus it seems normal to get the side of the hotel that has heavy construction going on. So how much rest do you really get? In fact getting this 'rest' could in fact make you more tired then when you arrived. It's a judgement issue. If I am around 2 hours or so from home, I would much rather fly home and sleep in my own bed. After all, you wouldn't get into a hotel bed any quicker.

 

[RefugePilot]

RP,

The FSDO can say anything they want, but it has very little bearing in front of an administrative law judge. FSDO opinions have no legal bearing.

Far be it from me to argue from someone clairvoyant. There was heavy construction going on outside my hotel window this morning. but.

If the FSDO says doing something will cause you to be not in compliance, then doing this thing will most likely mean getting the chance to explain your side to an administrative law judge.

When the FSDO said part 91 legs count towards a duty day as far as required rest was concerned, my company quit expecting us to show up 7 hours later after landing after a very long day.

I too would rather sleep in my own bed but not at the cost of anything less than 9 hours "rest". The duty and rest requirements are a joke as it is but anything a company does to reduce the rest even further should not be allowed ever.

 

[ttuite]

Far be it from me to argue from someone clairvoyant. There was heavy construction going on outside my hotel window this morning. but.

If the FSDO says doing something will cause you to be not in compliance, then doing this thing will most likely mean getting the chance to explain your side to an administrative law judge.

When the FSDO said part 91 legs count towards a duty day as far as required rest was concerned, my company quit expecting us to show up 7 hours later after landing after a very long day.

I too would rather sleep in my own bed but not at the cost of anything less than 9 hours "rest". The duty and rest requirements are a joke as it is but anything a company does to reduce the rest even further should not be allowed ever.

91 flights that end the shift do not count against your 14 hour duty day. However your 10 hour rest doesn't start until the completion of all commercial flying and ground time. If you fly 1 hour 91 to get the plane home your 10 hours does not start until after you have put the plane away and finished the paperwork.

 

[RefugePilot]

91 flights that end the shift do not count against your 14 hour duty day. However your 10 hour rest doesn't start until the completion of all commercial flying and ground time. If you fly 1 hour 91 to get the plane home your 10 hours does not start until after you have put the plane away and finished the paperwork.

My company knows that now thanks to the FSDO. I'd like to see a more realistic interpretation of this though in that if you exceed a 15 hour duty day (we are scheduled) you get the extended duty rest of 10 hours. Driving to work at 6 a.m. feels like a mini vacation.