Continental Pilots Offering 70-seat Scope?

[bvt1151]

I'm hearing from some people on the United side of the negotiating table that the pilots have already offered 70-seat scope limits at new United and they're now negotiating the possibility of higher limits.

Please, please, please tell me ALPA isn't throwing away more scope at a time when they finally have the power to hold the line! If I wasn't told by someone at the table I wouldn't believe it, but this guys just too close to be speculating.

 

[redflyer65]

Wow, hope this is false. Good luck guys, hold the line.

RF

 

[littlebigman]

As soon as that scope goes the 319's will be parked...

 

[RT8VA]

every e mail we have gotten says that just isn't true, well see

 

[Yuppyguppy]

not true

 

[bvt1151]

not true

Here's the thing... I'm not asking if it's true, I'm telling you it is. Aside from the guy at United who has heard ALPA make the offer (not the other way around), I'm also hearing it from Skywest who are lined up to replace Expressjet 145's with 70-seaters as quickly as they can come off the line. Granted Skywest isn't the best source of information, but where do you think they get their scope information from? United. I'm also hearing that Skywest is talking with the manufacturers about placing an order for hundreds of 70-seaters as soon as they get the go-ahead from United.

Don't believe it? Remember that little bit of news last year about how Skywest renegotiated the Expressjet CPA with United when they bought them? Yeah, well it gave Skywest exclusive upgrade rights from 50's to 70's for Expressjet, and they've been told to start negotiating 70-seat jets.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/news/2010/08/05/skywest-to-acquire-expressjet-in-continued-us-regional-consolidation/page1

So now United is talking about parking the 737-500's and at the same time ALPA is offering 70-seat scope. Me thinks some naive mainline pilots might find themselves kicked to the curb by ALPA...again.

So what to do? Call your reps and tell them what you want. If you want scope relief for whatever they're willing to buy it for, tell them. If you don't want scope relief because you value your profession, tell them. Once scope is on the table, it's expensive to take it back.

 

[RT8VA]

considering they aren't even at the table at the moment your source must have really good hearing. Nothing to see hear our reps have heard and hear every day loud and clear, no scope relief contract will pass with the rank and file for any price.

 

[bvt1151]

If you think they're not talking just because they tell you they're not talking, well, then I guess you guys have bigger problems than scope.

On the second part, I truly hope you're right. In the end, this will have to come down to the pilots. I'm not sure how often an endorsed TA get's turned down when it's put to vote, but I hope you're right, nonetheless.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm as informed a CAL pilot as they get, IMHO. I haven't heard anything even remotely close to what you are talking about. We probably have less than 1 pilot in 100 that think scope should change to accomodate 70 seats. That's throughout the list top to bottom. We just pulled out all the stops on an arbitration and won. If Jeff was offering UAL contract 2000 rates it wouldn't be enough.

 

[jonjuan]

FWIW, i've read xjt is hiring in big numbers (80/month) going forward. Where would they put all these bodies?
http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?41751-160-new-hires-for-March-April

 

[say again]

Flamebait? Just another hearsay rumor.

 

[nimtz]

Btv we've laid out why your source is complete bunk yet you are holding firm. If others haven't convinced you then I won't waste my time. Yes you know more then all of us cause your UAL source is golden. There better? Uncle Jerry pops Mormon wood when it comes to getting more lawn darts so I consider that source about as credible as Charlie Sheen.

The CAL MEC would be committing political suicide if they presented a TA unzipping the scope fly to our pilot group. We've very aware of the damage done and I'm pretty GD sure the UAL guys are as well. I won't argue specifically will be in final TA, but you can bet your @ss that scope destruction will not reign at Unical.

BTW notice that in past threads you have been extremely critical of CAL/UAL pilots being pansies that will give up on scope. Sure makes you look credible pal...

 

[bvt1151]

Btv we've laid out why your source is complete bunk yet you are holding firm. If others haven't convinced you then I won't waste my time. Yes you know more then all of us cause your UAL source is golden. There better? Uncle Jerry pops Mormon wood when it comes to getting more lawn darts so I consider that source about as credible as Charlie Sheen.

The CAL MEC would be committing political suicide if they presented a TA unzipping the scope fly to our pilot group. We've very aware of the damage done and I'm pretty GD sure the UAL guys are as well. I won't argue specifically will be in final TA, but you can bet your @ss that scope destruction will not reign at Unical.

Ignoring your tone, I entirely hope you are correct. That being said, your time is better spent making sure your reps are entirely clear on your position than calling me a liar.

 

[Jetjockey]

It could be true, it could be complete BS. Until it comes out in TA.......................I won't worry. If it does come out in a TA, it will fail miserably.

Next topic. Is Santa a pedophile? I heard from a very reliable source he knows who is naughty, and who is nice.

 

[DHPFLYN]

FWIW, i've read xjt is hiring in big numbers (80/month) going forward. Where would they put all these bodies?
http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?41751-160-new-hires-for-March-April

Because they are way understaffed !!! Most of the pilots are getting days rolled left and right.

 

[nimtz]

It could be true, it could be complete BS. Until it comes out in TA.......................I won't worry. If it does come out in a TA, it will fail miserably.

Ditto. My reps are well aware of our scope necessities. If they come out with BOHICA I will be the first in line with a pitchfork. Until then I'll pass on relying on an internet guy who heard from 'some people on the United side of the negotiating table.'

 

[say again]

It could be true, it could be complete BS. Until it comes out in TA.......................I won't worry. If it does come out in a TA, it will fail miserably.

Next topic. Is Santa a pedophile? I heard from a very reliable source he knows who is naughty, and who is nice.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!

To many "I heard this from.." BS to ever take it seriously. Let's see it on paper, discuss it, then watch it fail.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

FWIW, i've read xjt is hiring in big numbers (80/month) going forward. Where would they put all these bodies?
http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?41751-160-new-hires-for-March-April

Have you considered the new rest rules coming this summer? The possibility of hiring starting soon at some majors due to the new rules? Retirements starting as the over 60 crowd is aging? Remember that XJT is only guaranteed replacement aircraft, not growth...

 

[contrail67]

I'm hearing from some people on the United side of the negotiating table that the pilots have already offered 70-seat scope limits at new United and they're now negotiating the possibility of higher limits.

Please, please, please tell me ALPA isn't throwing away more scope at a time when they finally have the power to hold the line! If I wasn't told by someone at the table I wouldn't believe it, but this guys just too close to be speculating.

You must really be bored....dont you have anything better to do than start a nonsense thread..just to try to stir things up??

 

[EngineOut]

FWIW, i've read xjt is hiring in big numbers (80/month) going forward. Where would they put all these bodies?
http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?41751-160-new-hires-for-March-April

It doesn't mean that SkyWest Airlines will be getting those aircraft. When Expressjet and ASA merge, the CRJ 700 is on that certificate, too, you know.

Anyone who listened to the SkyWest conference call following the purchase of Expressjet can confirm that the deal included the option for Inc. to replace 75 ERJs with "upgraded" equipment and add 15 additional "upgraded airframes." Although CRJ 700 was not specifically mentioned (on purpose, I'm sure), it doesn't take much of a leap to figure it out.

 

[Jetjockey]

Don't ya hate when the voices of reason squash a good internet rumor?

 

[labbats]

They should teach how to ignore a rumor in ground school. Took me too darn long to figure that out myself.

 

[xjhawk]

Obviously the tool that started this thread is a 22 year old wonder school graduate who wants an upgrade when he turns 25

 

[bvt1151]

Obviously the tool that started this thread is a 22 year old wonder school graduate who wants an upgrade when he turns 25

Except if I were a 22-year-old wonder school graduate who wanted to upgrade by 25, don't you think I would have kept my mouth shut so scope clauses would sneak past you to allow me to do that? Did you actually read the post?

Good job on the chest thumping. In the mean-time, what are you doing to actually make sure ALPA hasn't already committed to United to trash Continental 50-seat scope? Oh, you're trying to discredit someone on a web board who warned you that it was happening? Great job! Make sure to tell your furloughed colleagues what a great job you're doing helping them get back.

Regardless of whether or not you're able to admit there's a chance you're being sold down a river, there still is a chance. My point is that chance is much much more likely than you think. So instead of taking the time to call me a liar thereby attempting to desensitize your colleagues to the very threat you want them to be very aware of, why don't you double check to make sure you're right? If you're wrong, you don't have to tell anyone, but I guarantee you're going to want to. If you're right, you'll have reiterated your position to your reps and the worst you'll have to deal with is skipping this thread the next time you log in.

Or you could just sit back and say it's all lies...just like the Delta pilots did, and the United pilots did, and the Northwest pilots did, and the Airways pilots did...

My motives are to make sure you guys aren't surprised by anything your union does. I don't want scope to be relaxed a single seat, but for entirely different reasons. Take a step back to realize that we're actually on the same side. You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Jetjockey]

Bvt....................are you an ALPA pilot? Or any union line pilot for that matter? If you are, you should know the membership would have to approve a TA. I don't think that there would be support for a TA that would allow scope erosion.

Great job sounding the alarm bell. You don't think we realize Jeff and company want UAL scope and more??? You are spreading rumors, which serves no purpose but to incite the real UAL/CAL pilots.

Until it's on paper from a Union source, I'm not buying your story. Now get back to class.

 

[bvt1151]

Bvt....................are you an ALPA pilot? Or any union line pilot for that matter? If you are, you should know the membership would have to approve a TA. I don't think that there would be support for a TA that would allow scope erosion.

ALPA pilot? Yes, although a bit different than you might expect.

You're right about the TA. You'll get to see it before it's ratified, but I've seen more TA's with scope relaxation passed than not. In fact I haven't seen a single TA with scope relaxation not passed, that ended up passing later with tighter scope.

TA's tend to pass or fail in a 60/40 vote. It's no coincidence that the Captain / FO split is about 60/40 as well. How well do you trust your captains? Now consider that the United FO's and captains will be voting on this as well. How well do you trust those pilots? The power of your vote just got diluted by half.

The simple matter is, if it does come down to a TA with scope relief, you've already lost your voice. You hold more power now as one of the few pilots talking directly to your reps than you will as one vote in the largest pilot pool in the world.

Don't think the TA vote is going to protect you. I know plenty of furloughed pilots who thought the same thing, only to see their scope-relaxed TA endorsed by the MEC and passed by the group. Delta, Northwest, United, American, Airways... They all said the same thing, and guess what...the TA passed.

It all comes down to this: How well do you trust the top 60% of the list who will be offered a pay raise in return for scope?

Don't let it come to a TA.

 

[eaglesview]

ALPA pilot? Yes, although a bit different than you might expect.

You're right about the TA. You'll get to see it before it's ratified, but I've seen more TA's with scope relaxation passed than not. In fact I haven't seen a single TA with scope relaxation not passed, that ended up passing later with tighter scope.

TA's tend to pass or fail in a 60/40 vote. It's no coincidence that the Captain / FO split is about 60/40 as well. How well do you trust your captains? Now consider that the United FO's and captains will be voting on this as well. How well do you trust those pilots? The power of your vote just got diluted by half.

The simple matter is, if it does come down to a TA with scope relief, you've already lost your voice. You hold more power now as one of the few pilots talking directly to your reps than you will as one vote in the largest pilot pool in the world.

Don't think the TA vote is going to protect you. I know plenty of furloughed pilots who thought the same thing, only to see their scope-relaxed TA endorsed by the MEC and passed by the group. Delta, Northwest, United, American, Airways... They all said the same thing, and guess what...the TA passed.

It all comes down to this: How well do you trust the top 60% of the list who will be offered a pay raise in return for scope?

Don't let it come to a TA.

Don't under estimate the resolve on the UA side. Remember we have had a first hand look at the ramifications of our scope clause. Over 1400 of our pilots are no longer here. I personally am in the top 60% of the list at UAL and have ZERO intention of relaxing any scope for a payraise. I assure you this is the mentality by the magority of the top 60 % and probably close to 100% of the bottom 40 %.

 

[nimtz]

ALPA pilot? Yes, although a bit different than you might expect.

You're right about the TA. You'll get to see it before it's ratified, but I've seen more TA's with scope relaxation passed than not. In fact I haven't seen a single TA with scope relaxation not passed, that ended up passing later with tighter scope.

TA's tend to pass or fail in a 60/40 vote. It's no coincidence that the Captain / FO split is about 60/40 as well. How well do you trust your captains? Now consider that the United FO's and captains will be voting on this as well. How well do you trust those pilots? The power of your vote just got diluted by half.

The simple matter is, if it does come down to a TA with scope relief, you've already lost your voice. You hold more power now as one of the few pilots talking directly to your reps than you will as one vote in the largest pilot pool in the world.

Don't think the TA vote is going to protect you. I know plenty of furloughed pilots who thought the same thing, only to see their scope-relaxed TA endorsed by the MEC and passed by the group. Delta, Northwest, United, American, Airways... They all said the same thing, and guess what...the TA passed.

It all comes down to this: How well do you trust the top 60% of the list who will be offered a pay raise in return for scope?

Don't let it come to a TA.

The above post is the same exact diarrhea that was blown out right here 9 months ago. You sure seem to have a hard on for this 60/40 thing. Get a life and try filling out an NCAA bracket.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2002685#post2002685.

Tell you what since you are so convinced and concerned for us NAME your source. Once your proven to be the white knight savior I will immediately restart the recall of Jayson Barron/Tara Cook. Until then my concern for your 'info' is about as high as my opinion of Joe Merchant...

 

[bvt1151]

Sigh...

No wonder you guys have screwed yourselves over so bad on scope. You're all more interested in discrediting warnings than actually protecting scope.

Let me know how that works out. So far, you're batting 0.

 

[nimtz]

Sigh...

No wonder you guys have screwed yourselves over so bad on scope. You're all more interested in discrediting warnings than actually protecting scope.

Let me know how that works out. So far, you're batting 0.

CAL furloughed 147 guys for 2 years because we wouldn't waver on 50 seats. We went right to an arbitrator to torpedo the company's latest run around despite many haters claiming we didn't have a chance. Name your source oh wise oracle. Until then who the **** are you to accuse us of not protecting our scope?!?