Pinnacle and Colgan seniority lists?

[CptMurf]

So your saying your greatly skilled negotiators brought jack to the table for you. Not so skilled in my eyes.

Still confusing Section 6 with the JCBA. The whole point was to merge the 3 contracts and adapt language. The win was to pick the best of all three. We had to trade some good for some bad. Thus the loss in 9E insurance. There was never a chance at negotiating a contract above the best of the three. They did well. My only complaint is the carve outs in pay (Saab/Q) and min day.

 

[Smarta$$]

Seems either way I have the possibility to lose QOL/Pay. I will speak to my reps, hope for the best, and bid to move with the aircraft (or not) to protect MY QOL. Hope you enjoy the enhancements over TA1 that XJs entrance to this merger brought you though.

This is why you cannot discuss the SLI during JCBA negotiations. The contract must be fair on it's own merits. And voted in or not, on those merits. The SLI can however discuss the windfalls gained in the JCBA.

I will underline it again for you.

How exactly is XJ responsible for the enhancements beyond your scope. The contents of the contract would have been achieved when our time on ice expired. As I said, the JCBA did not exceed the requirements set by our MEC, and they gave the negotiators strict orders not to bother agreeing to less than our requirements. When the NMB took us off ice, we would have achieved something similar to JCBA.

The people responsible for TA1 were removed and those negotiating on our behalf for TA2 were top notch.

Your scope, and the companies desire to move aircraft led to the JCBA. I give you marginal credit for the scope provisions, nothing more.

 

[CptMurf]

I will underline it again for you.

How exactly is XJ responsible for the enhancements beyond your scope. The contents of the contract would have been achieved when our time on ice expired. As I said, the JCBA did not exceed the requirements set by our MEC, and they gave the negotiators strict orders not to bother agreeing to less than our requirements. When the NMB took us off ice, we would have achieved something similar to JCBA.

The people responsible for TA1 were removed and those negotiating on our behalf for TA2 were top notch.

Your scope, and the companies desire to move aircraft led to the JCBA. I give you marginal credit for the scope provisions, nothing more.

If you underlined it, it didn't show up in the app I use to post. And apologize to have you restate the question.

My rebuttal would be...
When? 2 wks? 2 years? 6 years?
And are you sure it would be equal? I can remember people pounding their fists and saying Comair or better during our negotiations '04. Needless to say we signed for less. Never count on an aircraft until you finish IOE on it, a payrate until your cashing the check, or a contract until your holding your own paper copy. Everything else is speculation and wishful thinking.

Dude, I'm not saying bow down to XJ guys or their contract. Just give some credit that we brought a contract with some good provisions and overall have help the process of merging these 3 companies with terms good for all of us.

 

[xjhawk]

yeah when I look at what I got in compared to what some at Pinnacle and Colgan got in reference to increases I am thinking wow I got terrible 9E like reserve rules (long call being the only good thing) and better insurance? They get double digit increases and greatly improved QOL-maybe just maybe that is concidered a windfall. So just maybe I might be given some credit when we do SLI. If we do not, I will be getting the worse end of both sticks-losing years of seniority and crappy reserve rules....god I hope that does not happen.

 

[Smarta$$]

If you underlined it, it didn't show up in the app I use to post. And apologize to have you restate the question.

My rebuttal would be...
When? 2 wks? 2 years? 6 years?
And are you sure it would be equal? I can remember people pounding their fists and saying Comair or better during our negotiations '04. Needless to say we signed for less. Never count on an aircraft until you finish IOE on it, a payrate until your cashing the check, or a contract until your holding your own paper copy. Everything else is speculation and wishful thinking.

Dude, I'm not saying bow down to XJ guys or their contract. Just give some credit that we brought a contract with some good provisions and overall have help the process of merging these 3 companies with terms good for all of us.

To your final point, I do give credit. I believe it has much to do with you being released in 2004, and your good union leadership (which we lacked, in part, until the demise of TA1).

Our present contract is from 1999. If we hadn't been strung along for 6 years, we could also have made a contribution similar to yours.

But that does not mean you get to consider our contract improvements in SLI, because they were long overdue and would have been realized by us with or without the merger.

 

[Smarta$$]

yeah when I look at what I got in compared to what some at Pinnacle and Colgan got in reference to increases I am thinking wow I got terrible 9E like reserve rules (long call being the only good thing) and better insurance? They get double digit increases and greatly improved QOL-maybe just maybe that is concidered a windfall. So just maybe I might be given some credit when we do SLI. If we do not, I will be getting the worse end of both sticks-losing years of seniority and crappy reserve rules....god I hope that does not happen.

You were released in 2004, we have not have that good fortune yet, but we were getting close. Comair was put on ice just months before they were released to strike.

We would have had a much better contract sooner or later. You can't hold that over our heads. Sorry.

 

[CptMurf]

To your final point, I do give credit. I believe it has much to do with you being released in 2004, and your good union leadership (which we lacked, in part, until the demise of TA1).

Our present contract is from 1999. If we hadn't been strung along for 6 years, we could also have made a contribution similar to yours.

But that does not mean you get to consider our contract improvements in SLI, because they were long overdue and would have been realized by us with or without the merger.

Could you say the same about 9L? Would they eventually gotten this contract? Should we not look at their advances that were brought about by 9E/XJ in the JCBA?

Everything is in play for the SLI. The whole point is not to create windfalls for any group. This would involve both pay and QOL issues. I don't think it's fair to base that on what you think you might have gotten, just what you brought to the table as far as the contract goes. I believe that is why 9E was allowed to use TA1 as their baseline.

I'm not totally sold on DOH. Really I understand how it could be considered unfair, and I would have sympathy for those affected. But I do believe a hybrid should be closer to DOH than RS. It is only fair to recognize the longevity of those that have had their career expectations crushed over the last 10 years and have been dealing with this POS industry a bit longer. To do less, is just another crushing blow to those individuals, no matter which company they work for.

 

[CptMurf]

You were released in 2004, we have not have that good fortune yet, but we were getting close. Comair was put on ice just months before they were released to strike.

We would have had a much better contract sooner or later. You can't hold that over our heads. Sorry.

How's that Comair contract working for them now?This merger was the fastest and best senario for you guys. Give some recognition for those that helped you achieve it so quickly, not just total "we would have gotten it anyway" rhetoric.

 

[xjhawk]

You were released in 2004, we have not have that good fortune yet, but we were getting close. Comair was put on ice just months before they were released to strike.

We would have had a much better contract sooner or later. You can't hold that over our heads. Sorry.

Okay I see your point. I agree, you and Colgan get greater improvements (double digit pay increases) (QOL increases that you could not get for 6 years of negotiating oh and TA1 almost passed which this is far better than that) and we get no section 6 which we were due in the near future, some of us get no contract improvements at all and in some cases get worse work rules (the new TA has terrible reserve rules with the exception of long call and that will go super senior) and no pay increases. I am no expert but I am thinking that there are a couple groups that with this TA has gotten a lot and one group that has not gotten much. "windfall" comes to mind. So here is another point, there are some at colgan who if not addressed will gain a second windfall with a possibility of gaining 2-3 times their seniority. Then not to mention the MSP, MEM and DTW Pinnacle guys will now have access to 41 900's and if done the way is screamed here on FI or even a relative will gain a windfall in better schedules and better paying aircraft. OKAY WE GET IT, YOU WANT EVERYTHING and will give Mesaba nothing.

If our negotiators are unable to get a fair SLI and get us credit for what we brought to the table then the arbitrator will make his mind up and use precedent and that precident is DOH -at least that is what I am hearing. Oh and remember Pinnacle Holdings bought us, not Pinnacle Airlines. We all have the same overlords and one entity did not buy the other. So this is not a "may the victor take the spoils scenerio"

 

[suupah]

yeah when I look at what I got in compared to what some at Pinnacle and Colgan got in reference to increases I am thinking wow I got terrible 9E like reserve rules (long call being the only good thing) and better insurance? They get double digit increases and greatly improved QOL-maybe just maybe that is concidered a windfall. So just maybe I might be given some credit when we do SLI. If we do not, I will be getting the worse end of both sticks-losing years of seniority and crappy reserve rules....god I hope that does not happen.

honest question. not flaming. why do you want to vote yes then? Surely you're gaining something if you are inclined to vote yes?

 

[CptMurf]

honest question. not flaming. why do you want to vote yes then? Surely you're gaining something if you are inclined to vote yes?

I'll take a stab at it.... No matter what, even if we renegotiate and get something better, 9E/9Ls raises will be significantly better than XJs since we will all be on the SAME contract. So the question comes down to, could a better TA be had? I'm inclined to say No. If we vote it down, it will only strengthen mgmts. resolve, lower synergies and leverage, and ultimately be a risk vs reward that will result in an overall loss.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The risk is if this JCBA gets voted down, corp will transfer the CRJ's to inc anyways and all sorts of bad things can happen to the XJ pilot group. IE LOA 21.

I could be wrong but don't joint negotiations halt if the the JCBA is voted down, or is it just the SLI process?

 

[Smarta$$]

How's that Comair contract working for them now?This merger was the fastest and best senario for you guys. Give some recognition for those that helped you achieve it so quickly, not just total "we would have gotten it anyway" rhetoric.

I agree, I am glad it worked out this way. Don't go off point. You can't use an 11 year old contract against us. It was soon to be updated with or without you to something close to JCBA or current Mesaba+. If we had achieved our contract 3 months ago, we all still would have had something similar to JCBA for a joint contract anyway, and XJ and 9E both would have seen minimal gains with JCBA.

 

[Smarta$$]

Okay I see your point. I agree, you and Colgan get greater improvements (double digit pay increases) (QOL increases that you could not get for 6 years of negotiating oh and TA1 almost passed which this is far better than that) and we get no section 6 which we were due in the near future, some of us get no contract improvements at all and in some cases get worse work rules (the new TA has terrible reserve rules with the exception of long call and that will go super senior) and no pay increases. I am no expert but I am thinking that there are a couple groups that with this TA has gotten a lot and one group that has not gotten much. "windfall" comes to mind. So here is another point, there are some at colgan who if not addressed will gain a second windfall with a possibility of gaining 2-3 times their seniority. Then not to mention the MSP, MEM and DTW Pinnacle guys will now have access to 41 900's and if done the way is screamed here on FI or even a relative will gain a windfall in better schedules and better paying aircraft. OKAY WE GET IT, YOU WANT EVERYTHING and will give Mesaba nothing.

If our negotiators are unable to get a fair SLI and get us credit for what we brought to the table then the arbitrator will make his mind up and use precedent and that precident is DOH -at least that is what I am hearing. Oh and remember Pinnacle Holdings bought us, not Pinnacle Airlines. We all have the same overlords and one entity did not buy the other. So this is not a "may the victor take the spoils scenerio"

That is not at all what I am saying, and I could care less about your 41 A330s. You are very mistaken if you think our current MEC and negotiators were going to agree to anything close to TA1. It is also a mistake to think our negotiations would have gone on forever. In fact, part of the reason that we achieved JCBA in the first place is that management knew their game was almost up on dragging this thing out.

Sorry, 99 contract is not the base line for what we "brought" to the table. I respect your opinions, I have stated that I don't object to DOH entirely, but you piss me off when you insist that 99 contract is all we bring. Our management KNEW they would have to pony up the money and work rules soon.

 

[xjhawk]

Okay first of all I think the 9E pilot group brought a lot to the table but it sure was not your work rules, that is what we brought to the table. Your insurance was a great asset for negotiations but in all reality that was not going to fly being that everyones insurance rates have been going up. But it was a good starting point. I liked your 330 reference, it was a good laugh. But just to let you know I am on the 200 and with how senior the 900 has been going, I am planning on leaving here before ever getting on that plane. But i will note that their lines/schedules/trips and plane is better than the DC9 (CRJ 200). I know pleanty of great people over there at Pinnacle and I can see the look on their faces when I tell them how senior MSP is (even on the 200) and we all agree how difficult the SLI will be. This is a merger not an asset that you are aquiring. To answer why vote yes even though I think such things like the reserve rules blow? Well over all this package deal is not that bad and there were some gains made for a lot of people (mainly Colgan, Pinnacle and many of xj's FO's). I am playing the cards I was given and we cannot go back to the way things were. So from now on I would like to find out what is on the back side of this contract that was the reason for pinnacle corp to be in such a hurry for this to be done. I am confident our lawyers would shoot down any of your attempts to bring up a decade old LOA that has no bearing on what is going on today. Oh and by the way, why not do some research and ASK some of the guys who came over on that agreement. Have you flown with any of them? Have you talked to any of them and gotten their opinion on what they think? I did not think so, they were all happy with the opportunity given to them which at the time our union did not have to offer anything. If this gets voted down, I will fly for pinnacle but under my contract and you will fly under yours, guess what, good luck with that. Then in a couple years I will vote yes to the crappiest contract your stand alone MEC will get offered since all the "synergies" that we have now will have been gone. No, I will vote for yes for this contract as it is the best thing on the table. I think its funny all you "senior" Pinnacle guys are fighting so hard against DOH since it would help out most of your pilot group. Why not tell your FO's over at Pinnacle why DOH is bad for them when it will put most of them ahead of our FO's over at XJ. I am sure they are still happy with you selfish senior guys over there over the bonus's they are (were) getting screwed with. BTW I know this since I have talked to more than a few. Oh and that is why most of XJ is not screaming DOH because we realise that it is not good for everone even at our company.

So in summary, some sort of a blend with relative and DOH can be the only solution. Even then there will be some unhappy pilots