Pinnacle and Colgan seniority lists?

[Smarta$$]

yeah when I look at what I got in compared to what some at Pinnacle and Colgan got in reference to increases I am thinking wow I got terrible 9E like reserve rules (long call being the only good thing) and better insurance? They get double digit increases and greatly improved QOL-maybe just maybe that is concidered a windfall. So just maybe I might be given some credit when we do SLI. If we do not, I will be getting the worse end of both sticks-losing years of seniority and crappy reserve rules....god I hope that does not happen.

You were released in 2004, we have not have that good fortune yet, but we were getting close. Comair was put on ice just months before they were released to strike.

We would have had a much better contract sooner or later. You can't hold that over our heads. Sorry.

 

[CptMurf]

To your final point, I do give credit. I believe it has much to do with you being released in 2004, and your good union leadership (which we lacked, in part, until the demise of TA1).

Our present contract is from 1999. If we hadn't been strung along for 6 years, we could also have made a contribution similar to yours.

But that does not mean you get to consider our contract improvements in SLI, because they were long overdue and would have been realized by us with or without the merger.

Could you say the same about 9L? Would they eventually gotten this contract? Should we not look at their advances that were brought about by 9E/XJ in the JCBA?

Everything is in play for the SLI. The whole point is not to create windfalls for any group. This would involve both pay and QOL issues. I don't think it's fair to base that on what you think you might have gotten, just what you brought to the table as far as the contract goes. I believe that is why 9E was allowed to use TA1 as their baseline.

I'm not totally sold on DOH. Really I understand how it could be considered unfair, and I would have sympathy for those affected. But I do believe a hybrid should be closer to DOH than RS. It is only fair to recognize the longevity of those that have had their career expectations crushed over the last 10 years and have been dealing with this POS industry a bit longer. To do less, is just another crushing blow to those individuals, no matter which company they work for.

 

[CptMurf]

You were released in 2004, we have not have that good fortune yet, but we were getting close. Comair was put on ice just months before they were released to strike.

We would have had a much better contract sooner or later. You can't hold that over our heads. Sorry.

How's that Comair contract working for them now?This merger was the fastest and best senario for you guys. Give some recognition for those that helped you achieve it so quickly, not just total "we would have gotten it anyway" rhetoric.

 

[xjhawk]

You were released in 2004, we have not have that good fortune yet, but we were getting close. Comair was put on ice just months before they were released to strike.

We would have had a much better contract sooner or later. You can't hold that over our heads. Sorry.

Okay I see your point. I agree, you and Colgan get greater improvements (double digit pay increases) (QOL increases that you could not get for 6 years of negotiating oh and TA1 almost passed which this is far better than that) and we get no section 6 which we were due in the near future, some of us get no contract improvements at all and in some cases get worse work rules (the new TA has terrible reserve rules with the exception of long call and that will go super senior) and no pay increases. I am no expert but I am thinking that there are a couple groups that with this TA has gotten a lot and one group that has not gotten much. "windfall" comes to mind. So here is another point, there are some at colgan who if not addressed will gain a second windfall with a possibility of gaining 2-3 times their seniority. Then not to mention the MSP, MEM and DTW Pinnacle guys will now have access to 41 900's and if done the way is screamed here on FI or even a relative will gain a windfall in better schedules and better paying aircraft. OKAY WE GET IT, YOU WANT EVERYTHING and will give Mesaba nothing.

If our negotiators are unable to get a fair SLI and get us credit for what we brought to the table then the arbitrator will make his mind up and use precedent and that precident is DOH -at least that is what I am hearing. Oh and remember Pinnacle Holdings bought us, not Pinnacle Airlines. We all have the same overlords and one entity did not buy the other. So this is not a "may the victor take the spoils scenerio"

 

[suupah]

yeah when I look at what I got in compared to what some at Pinnacle and Colgan got in reference to increases I am thinking wow I got terrible 9E like reserve rules (long call being the only good thing) and better insurance? They get double digit increases and greatly improved QOL-maybe just maybe that is concidered a windfall. So just maybe I might be given some credit when we do SLI. If we do not, I will be getting the worse end of both sticks-losing years of seniority and crappy reserve rules....god I hope that does not happen.

honest question. not flaming. why do you want to vote yes then? Surely you're gaining something if you are inclined to vote yes?

 

[CptMurf]

honest question. not flaming. why do you want to vote yes then? Surely you're gaining something if you are inclined to vote yes?

I'll take a stab at it.... No matter what, even if we renegotiate and get something better, 9E/9Ls raises will be significantly better than XJs since we will all be on the SAME contract. So the question comes down to, could a better TA be had? I'm inclined to say No. If we vote it down, it will only strengthen mgmts. resolve, lower synergies and leverage, and ultimately be a risk vs reward that will result in an overall loss.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The risk is if this JCBA gets voted down, corp will transfer the CRJ's to inc anyways and all sorts of bad things can happen to the XJ pilot group. IE LOA 21.

I could be wrong but don't joint negotiations halt if the the JCBA is voted down, or is it just the SLI process?

 

[Smarta$$]

How's that Comair contract working for them now?This merger was the fastest and best senario for you guys. Give some recognition for those that helped you achieve it so quickly, not just total "we would have gotten it anyway" rhetoric.

I agree, I am glad it worked out this way. Don't go off point. You can't use an 11 year old contract against us. It was soon to be updated with or without you to something close to JCBA or current Mesaba+. If we had achieved our contract 3 months ago, we all still would have had something similar to JCBA for a joint contract anyway, and XJ and 9E both would have seen minimal gains with JCBA.

 

[Smarta$$]

Okay I see your point. I agree, you and Colgan get greater improvements (double digit pay increases) (QOL increases that you could not get for 6 years of negotiating oh and TA1 almost passed which this is far better than that) and we get no section 6 which we were due in the near future, some of us get no contract improvements at all and in some cases get worse work rules (the new TA has terrible reserve rules with the exception of long call and that will go super senior) and no pay increases. I am no expert but I am thinking that there are a couple groups that with this TA has gotten a lot and one group that has not gotten much. "windfall" comes to mind. So here is another point, there are some at colgan who if not addressed will gain a second windfall with a possibility of gaining 2-3 times their seniority. Then not to mention the MSP, MEM and DTW Pinnacle guys will now have access to 41 900's and if done the way is screamed here on FI or even a relative will gain a windfall in better schedules and better paying aircraft. OKAY WE GET IT, YOU WANT EVERYTHING and will give Mesaba nothing.

If our negotiators are unable to get a fair SLI and get us credit for what we brought to the table then the arbitrator will make his mind up and use precedent and that precident is DOH -at least that is what I am hearing. Oh and remember Pinnacle Holdings bought us, not Pinnacle Airlines. We all have the same overlords and one entity did not buy the other. So this is not a "may the victor take the spoils scenerio"

That is not at all what I am saying, and I could care less about your 41 A330s. You are very mistaken if you think our current MEC and negotiators were going to agree to anything close to TA1. It is also a mistake to think our negotiations would have gone on forever. In fact, part of the reason that we achieved JCBA in the first place is that management knew their game was almost up on dragging this thing out.

Sorry, 99 contract is not the base line for what we "brought" to the table. I respect your opinions, I have stated that I don't object to DOH entirely, but you piss me off when you insist that 99 contract is all we bring. Our management KNEW they would have to pony up the money and work rules soon.

 

[xjhawk]

Okay first of all I think the 9E pilot group brought a lot to the table but it sure was not your work rules, that is what we brought to the table. Your insurance was a great asset for negotiations but in all reality that was not going to fly being that everyones insurance rates have been going up. But it was a good starting point. I liked your 330 reference, it was a good laugh. But just to let you know I am on the 200 and with how senior the 900 has been going, I am planning on leaving here before ever getting on that plane. But i will note that their lines/schedules/trips and plane is better than the DC9 (CRJ 200). I know pleanty of great people over there at Pinnacle and I can see the look on their faces when I tell them how senior MSP is (even on the 200) and we all agree how difficult the SLI will be. This is a merger not an asset that you are aquiring. To answer why vote yes even though I think such things like the reserve rules blow? Well over all this package deal is not that bad and there were some gains made for a lot of people (mainly Colgan, Pinnacle and many of xj's FO's). I am playing the cards I was given and we cannot go back to the way things were. So from now on I would like to find out what is on the back side of this contract that was the reason for pinnacle corp to be in such a hurry for this to be done. I am confident our lawyers would shoot down any of your attempts to bring up a decade old LOA that has no bearing on what is going on today. Oh and by the way, why not do some research and ASK some of the guys who came over on that agreement. Have you flown with any of them? Have you talked to any of them and gotten their opinion on what they think? I did not think so, they were all happy with the opportunity given to them which at the time our union did not have to offer anything. If this gets voted down, I will fly for pinnacle but under my contract and you will fly under yours, guess what, good luck with that. Then in a couple years I will vote yes to the crappiest contract your stand alone MEC will get offered since all the "synergies" that we have now will have been gone. No, I will vote for yes for this contract as it is the best thing on the table. I think its funny all you "senior" Pinnacle guys are fighting so hard against DOH since it would help out most of your pilot group. Why not tell your FO's over at Pinnacle why DOH is bad for them when it will put most of them ahead of our FO's over at XJ. I am sure they are still happy with you selfish senior guys over there over the bonus's they are (were) getting screwed with. BTW I know this since I have talked to more than a few. Oh and that is why most of XJ is not screaming DOH because we realise that it is not good for everone even at our company.

So in summary, some sort of a blend with relative and DOH can be the only solution. Even then there will be some unhappy pilots

 

[CptMurf]

I agree, I am glad it worked out this way. Don't go off point. You can't use an 11 year old contract against us. It was soon to be updated with or without you to something close to JCBA or current Mesaba+. If we had achieved our contract 3 months ago, we all still would have had something similar to JCBA for a joint contract anyway, and XJ and 9E both would have seen minimal gains with JCBA.

You know what, I see your point, and somewhat agree. 9E WAS allowed TA1 as a baseline entering the JCBA negotiations, and I can give credit for that too.

From now on, I will not claim a double digit increase for 9E with the JCBA. But it was an increase over TA1, and a larger increase than XJ. I don't know how you would qualify it then, not a windfall..."yet." But much closer to one than XJ. 9L, well, I don't know how you wouldn't consider the entire merger a windfall, the only thing they may or could lose is seniority and "career expectations." of course, we've all lost the later over the last 10 years.

 

[sinkrate]

Every one assumes the JCBA has improved work rules over the current 9e contract - and they haven't even seen the entire thing yet. From what has been released its a mixed bag for a junior to mid seniority pilot at 9e. Currently a 9e pilot can can refuse 9 extensions a year - that will be reduced to 3 a year. Currently extensions are done without respect to seniority and are spread around - now they must be done in seniority. The junior line holders are going to get hammered. Currently junior mans on a day off can be refused. The JCBA for the first time has limits on that. Insurance and medical expenses are increasing in a big way. The JCBA is concessionary from the current vacation system. Currently you can take a week of vacation and turn it into two weeks off - thats gone. With what has been announced so far the only clearly beneficial thing the JCBA does for a 9e line holder is flashy pay rates. For reserves it is a mixed bag also. They gain a day off but gave up reserve out of domicile. So far all they see is the extra day off but they'll learn the hard way. They will also bear the brunt of dual qual when it happens.

A lot of the language that affects the life of a line pilot on a daily basis looks like language from 9e's '96 contract. It kind of looks like the worst of both to me - Mesaba's involuntary assignment language for line holders and Pinnacles reserve system. It looks like 'pay for productivity' and reduced benefits to me. Gee, where have I heard that before.

Now, if some one can please explain to me in concrete terms how this new contract is going to improve things compared to the current contract, never mind the failed TA, I'm all ears. But please wait until the entire thing is out.

My point is a lot of Mesaba pilots think they just laid a great contract in the laps of the 9e pilots. It ain't so. It's very different, it rewards single pilots at the expense of the family guys, it moves involuntary assignments from the entire pilot group to the junior pilots and gives the company and the senior pilots better tools to enforce that, but in the end it ain't 'better'. Just different with more money for most.

So stop claiming you should get credit for this in the SLI. That argument is full of arrogance, not fact, and is really tiresome.

 

[Kaman]

I heard a remark from a Delta 767-400 Captain on integration/contracts...If everyone is slightly unhappy then it was a good agreement for everyone. Hopefully, our powers that be will strive for that kind of solution. If one group of the three gets really hosed, it will not bode well for the rest.

 

[CptMurf]

Every one assumes the JCBA has improved work rules over the current 9e contract - and they haven't even seen the entire thing yet. From what has been released its a mixed bag for a junior to mid seniority pilot at 9e. Currently a 9e pilot can can refuse 9 extensions a year - that will be reduced to 3 a year. Currently extensions are done without respect to seniority and are spread around - now they must be done in seniority. The junior line holders are going to get hammered. Currently junior mans on a day off can be refused. The JCBA for the first time has limits on that. Insurance and medical expenses are increasing in a big way. The JCBA is concessionary from the current vacation system. Currently you can take a week of vacation and turn it into two weeks off - thats gone. With what has been announced so far the only clearly beneficial thing the JCBA does for a 9e line holder is flashy pay rates. For reserves it is a mixed bag also. They gain a day off but gave up reserve out of domicile. So far all they see is the extra day off but they'll learn the hard way. They will also bear the brunt of dual qual when it happens.

A lot of the language that affects the life of a line pilot on a daily basis looks like language from 9e's '96 contract. It kind of looks like the worst of both to me - Mesaba's involuntary assignment language for line holders and Pinnacles reserve system. It looks like 'pay for productivity' and reduced benefits to me. Gee, where have I heard that before.

Now, if some one can please explain to me in concrete terms how this new contract is going to improve things compared to the current contract, never mind the failed TA, I'm all ears. But please wait until the entire thing is out.

My point is a lot of Mesaba pilots think they just laid a great contract in the laps of the 9e pilots. It ain't so. It's very different, it rewards single pilots at the expense of the family guys, it moves involuntary assignments from the entire pilot group to the junior pilots and gives the company and the senior pilots better tools to enforce that, but in the end it ain't 'better'. Just different with more money for most.

So stop claiming you should get credit for this in the SLI. That argument is full of arrogance, not fact, and is really tiresome.

If you believe that the TA is not up to par, or a loss in work rules than don't vote for it. The contract has to be good on its own merits, right or wrong, good or bad.

This discussion however, assumes that the TA passes. If it does, than gains from the JCBA should be considered in the SLI. If you broke the 3 companies into 2 parts (CA and FO). Then looked at those six components for gains (read windfalls). I believe the order would be...
1. 9L CAs
2. 9L FOs
3. 9E CAs
4. 9E FOs
5. XJ FOs
6. XJ CAs
There should be SOME significance to the fact that the XJ CAs have gained the least (if any) from this JCBA. To say otherwise, "is full of arrogance, not fact, and is really tiresome."

 

[suupah]

If you believe that the TA is not up to par, or a loss in work rules than don't vote for it. The contract has to be good on its own merits, right or wrong, good or bad.

This discussion however, assumes that the TA passes. If it does, than gains from the JCBA should be considered in the SLI. If you broke the 3 companies into 2 parts (CA and FO). Then looked at those six components for gains (read windfalls). I believe the order would be...
1. 9L CAs
2. 9L FOs
3. 9E CAs
4. 9E FOs
5. XJ FOs
6. XJ CAs
There should be SOME significance to the fact that the XJ CAs have gained the least (if any) from this JCBA. To say otherwise, "is full of arrogance, not fact, and is really tiresome."

Is there any precedent for considering benefits gained from a JCBA when formulating a solution for an SLI?

Aren't the two issues considered separately? Our JCBA could be negotiated away in five years, or earlier through LOA's or a bankruptcy. SLI will have to be lived with forever.

 

[CptMurf]

Is there any precedent for considering benefits gained from a JCBA when formulating a solution for an SLI?

Aren't the two issues considered separately? Our JCBA could be negotiated away in five years, or earlier through LOA's or a bankruptcy. SLI will have to be lived with forever.

I'm not sure if you weren't a negotiator that anyone would know if they was a precedent. Here's the merger section from the administrative manual.
http://www.wearealpa.org/about/adminmanual/Section_045_Merger_and_Fragmentation_Policy.pdf
Note this has been amended. Here's an overview of the changes.
http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WpYTk6T1Hs0=&tabid=3345
Note that it says negotiators, arbitrators, and mediators are free to consider other factors they deem appropriate. Pretty sure the lopsided increase in pay is going to be brought up.

 

[CptMurf]

Is there any precedent for considering benefits gained from a JCBA when formulating a solution for an SLI?

Aren't the two issues considered separately? Our JCBA could be negotiated away in five years, or earlier through LOA's or a bankruptcy. SLI will have to be lived with forever.

Now the JCBA does have to be negotiated separate to SLI. They can't even talk about it till 29 days after a contract. It has to stand on it's own merits.

The contract should only be enhanced through negotiations. The SLI should be fair from the get go. They problem is there are 3,000 definitions of fair here. Relative seniority is not fair to those that have spent the time to make their contracts/companies successful over the years. DOH is not fair to those that took advantage going to a growing company in an effort for a quick upgrade or more seniority (read QOL).

 

[efc]

Happy New Year to all and wishes for a better 2011.

Sorry for piggy backing on this thread but I'm trying to find a friend that flies at Pinnacle. His name is Angel Mercedes, last I spoke to him he was based in NY. Any help will be appreciated.

Thank You!