But Dave will leave if we vote in a union....

[BeachBummer]

Yea shame on Dave creating all those jobs, why what was he thinking of? Oh! thats right only thinking of himself and for that he must be punished. You will only know in about 5-10 years if getting rid of Dave is the right or wrong thing to do at this time. The union did such wonders for the Comair pilots with their precedent setting regional contract. What is the future at Comair rigth now, not much. Where does this come from, all the Comair pilots I have interviewed over the last few months, who now look at USA Jet DA-20 seat as a better career move than Comair.

Last time I checked, jetblue wasn't owned or controlled by any one but jetblue... jet blue is not a regional carrier. Nor do we have to worry if some other company will keep our contract, renew it, buy us more planes or give them to some other carrier in the REGIONAL whipsaw. If your going to compare, please compare apples to apples.

Until MANAGMENT failed at united, delta, NWA, ect... the unions did a very good job at increasing the quality of life and pay. A bankrupt company is never the fault of the union when talking airlines.

If our planes start giong to other carriers and are being flown under the jetblue flag, we have no one to blame but ourselves for believing that the great jetblue would never do us wrong.

 

[BeachBummer]

BTW....the last 15 "give or take" captains I have flown with have all turned in their cards and are anxiously awaiting the vote! Bidding with the bobs can be harmful to your health....not to mention the welfare of your career, family, seniority, color of shirt we wear, hats or no hats....oh dang...the list goes on and on!

My point was that "cowboy55" has been on FI for 4 months and to date has made all 8 posts in a anti-alpa mantra... Stinks of FLAME from the Jenny monster (aka union busting corperate spin doctor), or something like it. I wouldn't pay much mind to cowboy55.

 

[pilotyip]

Until MANAGMENT failed at united, delta, NWA, ect... the unions did a very good job at increasing the quality of life and pay. A bankrupt company is never the fault of the union when talking airlines..

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[BeachBummer]

Your babbling... and still made my point. We aren't talking manager salaries. You were comparing the need for a union at jet blue to the demise of comair.

 

[BeachBummer]

Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the respect, prestige, recognition or money you may be disappointed.

I fly because I like it. I also expect the respect and recognition and pay that come with being a professional at my craft. If you wanna fly because you like it and that's all... go buy a 172.

 

[cowboy55]

My point was that "cowboy55" has been on FI for 4 months and to date has made all 8 posts in a anti-alpa mantra... Stinks of FLAME from the Jenny monster (aka union busting corperate spin doctor), or something like it. I wouldn't pay much mind to cowboy55.

If anything is FLAME it's what you are posting. Your allowed to post pro union and Im allowed to post my opinion. Your attitude reflects how you use flame to spread false information to gain ALPA support. Your ridiculous accusation of saying Im Jenny from corporate shows what kind of leadership one can expect from the ALPA organizing committee.

 

[pilotyip]

Your babbling... and still made my point. We aren't talking manager salaries. You were comparing the need for a union at jet blue to the demise of comair.

As a former union member a couple times, like many others here, I find that unions are not the guarantee of anything, except in many cases BK. Unions back management into corners that the airline can not afford but management gives in and agrees in hopes things will work out. But what about when unions price themselves out of the market, and non-union companies such Toyota, JetBlue, etc step in and offer the consumers a similar product at a lower price. Why do union members support non-union places of work, i.e. all the UAW Buy American stickers on the bumpers of the cars parked in the Wal-Mart parking lot? If Bob King, follows was the old tactics of the UAW, he will most likely destroy the remainder of the US auto industry. But if he follows the tactic of the Germans unions, where raises in pay in benefits are more than offset by increases in productivity, he may truly become an American hero. No more job bank, no more 76 job classifications. In the end the consumer of a product determines the wages paid to the employees. BTW do not shop at Wal-Mart I shop a union store down the street called Meijer's, why because they area local business.

I fly because I like it. I also expect the respect and recognition and pay that come with being a professional at my craft. If you wanna fly because you like it and that's all... go buy a 172.

Thank you very much I do own a C-172 which I love to fly. I see you expect recognition, respect and pay above what you have now and because of that you are disappointed. And that can not be your fault. It must be someone elses

 

[BeachBummer]

Then, that is a failure of managment.

I'm all for smart negotiations. No one wants to choke the preverbial golden goose. Frankly, I don't support unions in general. Our profession is however a different animal all together and requires more protections than just about any other. For me, it's more like a Dr.'s malpractice insurance. I've been union and non-union twice now. I like being union. I have another 30+ years in this profession and would like to make the most of it. That's my job. Managments job is to make sure that I get as little as possible to do the job that I was hired to do. As far as I can tell, a leagally binding contract, with work rules and recognition from the nmb is the only way to do that.

 

[BeachBummer]

If anything is FLAME it's what you are posting. Your allowed to post pro union and Im allowed to post my opinion. Your attitude reflects how you use flame to spread false information to gain ALPA support. Your ridiculous accusation of saying Im Jenny from corporate shows what kind of leadership one can expect from the ALPA organizing committee.

I havn't said anything thats false. I made an observation. Everyone is entitled to the FI opinion. If you joined up just to bash on APLA then good on you. Post on.

 

[BeachBummer]

Thank you very much I do own a C-172 which I love to fly. I see you expect recognition, respect and pay above what you have now and because of that you are disappointed. And that can not be your fault. It must be someone elses

Comming from a DA-20 standards manager I'd expect nothing less...

Congrats on your 172. There is a vast differenct though in flying for fun and being a professional airline pilot.

I'm not hardly disappointed. But there is room for improvment. I am 100% responsible for my position as well. I chose to be where I am. I also choose to take control of the decisions that directly affect my life.

 

[pilotyip]

Then, that is a failure of managment.

When the union backs a company into a corner, where if the strike continues it could mean failure of the airline, so management gives in to unreasonable demands. The union had nothing to do with putting the airline in that situation? Like UAL in 2000 where ALPA at UAL set the top CA wage a $350K. BTW:My luck and timing where not a fortunate as yours, so you have to take what you get. I am worth what my employer elects to pay me, if it is not adequate I go someplace else. I have turned down jobs and have left jobs because of pay. Since I did not have a lot of options at age 53, I am very content with my pay and how I am treated. I am happy, and lucky to be where I am today and that is more than I can for a lot of what I see on this site. After 11 jobs since leaving the Navy, I have adopted another slogan, "Expect nothing and you will never be disappointed” I know it sounds like having no drive, ambition or goals, but that is not the case. There is so much in this business you have absolutely no control over, these effect your job. To fret unnecessarily over those things causes ulcers, it is not worth it. Getting depressed over stupid things that you have no control over is nor worth it.

 

[cowboy55]

I havn't said anything thats false. I made an observation. Everyone is entitled to the FI opinion. If you joined up just to bash on APLA then good on you. Post on.

Good. ALPA can't get me anything better than what we have now except take my money. We will have to give up more than we get back. Cheers

 

[av8tor4239]

Frankly, I don't support unions in general.

I like being union.

WTF??? Did you just say that in the same post???

Managments job is to make sure that I get as little as possible to do the job that I was hired to do.

This comment is irrational... They are not out to get you... you hired on to a NON UNION COMPANY that has many more perks and pay bennies than the competion... complacency is common in this business.. watch yourself... Remember where you came from!

 

[Jet41]

I have turned down jobs and have left jobs because of pay. Since I did not have a lot of options at age 53, I am very content with my pay and how I am treated.

Of course those $$ you get from the Navy helps make those decisions a little easier don't they.

 

[Splert]

WTF??? Did you just say that in the same post???

This comment is irrational... They are not out to get you... you hired on to a NON UNION COMPANY that has many more perks and pay bennies than the competion... complacency is common in this business.. watch yourself... Remember where you came from!

We were category lowest in every metric reported by the PCRB.

Again your basic grasp of the facts is weak and that renders your opinion meaningless.

Every airline in the history of the airline business started out as non union.