What if USAir merged with American(DOH west?)

[Cowboy75]

Thanks Cowboy75,

Yes, they took me off for using a word, properly, that is still being used improperly here from what I've seen upon my return. Guess I also reported a post but then couldn't resist quoting the post. Well, anyway....thanks.

You've been civil to me in our East-West "civil war"

Looking forward to more debates.

Cowboy

 

[Lear70]

AutoBus suspended for improper use of the term "Scab", even hidden in asterisks...

Everyone has been warned REPEATEDLY about this. Next person gets 30 days. No questions asked. Knock it off.

/mod

 

[Bringupthebird]

Actually, the party that agreed to Nic is long gone.

What, THE PILOTS IN THE SERVICE OF USAIRWAYS and THE PILOTS IN SERVICE OF AMERICA WEST AIRLINES are gone? How them airplanes gettin' flown?

Think of ALPA as Jerry McGuire and the pilots as Rod Tidwell. Then along came Sugar...

 

[Cowboy75]

AutoBus suspended for improper use of the term "Scab", even hidden in asterisks...

Everyone has been warned REPEATEDLY about this. Next person gets 30 days. No questions asked. Knock it off.

/mod

I guess I missed that post.

 

[Caveman]

Caveman,

Wow, that's some interesting fiction. It certainly didn't suck to be at US Airways when we were hired. In fact, there were several thankful AWA pilots in my class. Our wages were better, as were our working conditions. We had 400 Airbus' on order. Some of our work rules are still better, (called mommy to be released lately?) ALPA somehow missed out on giving it all away! In your own active imagination, AWA has been THE place to work since its time began. Cute idea, but not in line with actual facts.

Furthermore, I believe it's your side that's doing the suing. We were the defendants, remember? That's why we had to appeal your hometown judge's "ruling." And what's this about losing? Judge Wake is about to be told by the higher court to dismiss your last "victory."

Time has a way of filtering out the BS. As I've pointed out, there's quite a bit of it in your post. Stay tuned.

All jobs are great when you first get hired. Some end up working out pretty well. Others not so much. Has getting hired at Airways lived up to your expectations? Multiple furloughs, multiple bankruptcies, major pay concessions, 20+ year FO's, CA to FO downgrades, retirement gone, etc, etc. How has it been the last few years fighting with the West? Every Airways pilot I know (and I know more than a few) was thrilled to get the job initially. For most of them it's been downhill ever since.

FYI, I'm not a Westie, hence the "those of us on the sidelines" comment, but I can assure you that my opinion about the East vs West debacle is not unique. Every non-Airways pilot I've ever discussed this topic with basically agrees with me. It's universally understood that USAPA and the East are sore losers and have been unreasonable throughout this event.

I wish you and the West well. I hope someday, somehow you guys can come to terms and get past this. In order for that to happen one of you has to man up and do the right thing. I strongly suggest the Easties take a long hard look in the mirror. The solution to your problems will be staring back at you.

 

[say again]

All jobs are great when you first get hired. Some end up working out pretty well. Others not so much. Has getting hired at Airways lived up to your expectations? Multiple furloughs, multiple bankruptcies, major pay concessions, 20+ year FO's, CA to FO downgrades, retirement gone, etc, etc. How has it been the last few years fighting with the West? Every Airways pilot I know (and I know more than a few) was thrilled to get the job initially. For most of them it's been downhill ever since.

FYI, I'm not a Westie, hence the "those of us on the sidelines" comment, but I can assure you that my opinion about the East vs West debacle is not unique. Every non-Airways pilot I've ever discussed this topic with basically agrees with me. It's universally understood that USAPA and the East are sore losers and have been unreasonable throughout this event.

I wish you and the West well. I hope someday, somehow you guys can come to terms and get past this. In order for that to happen one of you has to man up and do the right thing. I strongly suggest the Easties take a long hard look in the mirror. The solution to your problems will be staring back at you.

Well said! :beer:

 

[Cowboy75]

Well said! :beer:

Agreed...:beer:
That includes the avatar, both of them above...

 

[cactusboy53]

THe west needs to negotiate- they have been holding up the train for to long. I for one would lke to see some reason over there, but just dont see it. They continue to cling to thier lottery ticket and refuse to budge.

Funny, we were at a gathering the other day about how obstinate our east counter parts were trying to cash the DOH lottery ticket and that they just don't see it.

There was a contract that was about 90% done prior to the inception of USAPA. The two JNC's were down to the final touches that included wages. The company testified in court that they were expecting to pay the AWA wages + an additional 10% - 11% (that would have been narrow body pay of about $157 and hour). All that money, time off and better scheduling.......GONE. Never to be recovered.

Now that's what I call holding things up. USAPA promised a new contract in SIX MONTHS. We are now sitting at 2 years and 3 months.

 

[St. Nic]

Funny, we were at a gathering the other day about how obstinate our east counter parts were trying to cash the DOH lottery ticket and that they just don't see it.

There was a contract that was about 90% done prior to the inception of USAPA. The two JNC's were down to the final touches that included wages. The company testified in court that they were expecting to pay the AWA wages + an additional 10% - 11% (that would have been narrow body pay of about $157 and hour). All that money, time off and better scheduling.......GONE. Never to be recovered.

Now that's what I call holding things up. USAPA promised a new contract in SIX MONTHS. We are now sitting at 2 years and 3 months.

How's yer lawsuit coming?

 

[cactusboy53]

How's yer lawsuit coming?

Quite well, thanks for asking. Donations are coming in from all over the globe. It's going to be an interesting couple of months (for you senior captains that lurk, that translated to about $15,000 in lost income, time off & other improvements. 2 years & 4 months...isn't that funny?

 

[Guppiedriver]

Quite well, thanks for asking. Donations are coming in from all over the globe. It's going to be an interesting couple of months (for you senior captains that lurk, that translated to about $15,000 in lost income, time off & other improvements. 2 years & 4 months...isn't that funny?

That's $65,000 in lost income.

 

[gutshotdraw]

FYI, I'm not a Westie, hence the "those of us on the sidelines" comment, but I can assure you that my opinion about the East vs West debacle is not unique. Every non-Airways pilot I've ever discussed this topic with basically agrees with me. It's universally understood that USAPA and the East are sore losers and have been unreasonable throughout this event.

Exactamundo.

 

[PuffDriver]

You're right, you can state your opinion as fact if you please. My mistake in trying to have a lucid discussion with you.Um, let's see. ALPA's merger policy involves negotiation, mediation, and arbitration if necessary. APA's merger policy is the APA gets to decide. Guess both policies make perfect sense to you.So what you're saying is if you don't like one arbitrator's list you should be able to ask another. That's kind of reasonable. Problem is it's too late for US/AWA since there's no more AWA merger committee. I think Delta/NW had the best idea by having a three-arbitrator panel. Look for the same with UA/CO.Are you sure you're not a USAPA official because that sure sounds like USAPA logic. Binding means binding even if one side doesn't like it. Otherwise, it isn't binding. The East agreed to binding arbitration. Rationalize all you like but that's why it ended up in court and will again.

I am going to let the "lucid discussion" remark slide, although I believe that is not at all what you intend.

I see that you are all the way down to quoting very little, meaning you really have no rebuttal to any of my points. You've boiled it down to "binding means binding"-which is where you guys always go with it. Eagle summed it up nicely, the East lost poorly--albeit with reason, and the west were poor winners--IMO with less rationale.

I'll leave you with this, binding SHOULD mean binding unless it cannot pass an appeal of some sort. I think this arbitration would not pass an appeal. I also think that your date of hire should mean something across the ALPA spectrum--or there should be a measure to objectively quantify an ALPA/ALPA merger pilot's standing in seniority. Anything else leave this outcome as a possibility.

 

[Cowboy75]

I am going to let the "lucid discussion" remark slide, although I believe that is not at all what you intend.

I see that you are all the way down to quoting very little, meaning you really have no rebuttal to any of my points. You've boiled it down to "binding means binding"-which is where you guys always go with it. Eagle summed it up nicely, the East lost poorly--albeit with reason, and the west were poor winners--IMO with less rationale.

I'll leave you with this, binding SHOULD mean binding unless it cannot pass an appeal of some sort. I think this arbitration would not pass an appeal. I also think that your date of hire should mean something across the ALPA spectrum--or there should be a measure to objectively quantify an ALPA/ALPA merger pilot's standing in seniority. Anything else leave this outcome as a possibility.

I don't understand why some people have such a hard time understanding the word binding? Nic is the compromise.

If the East pilots want a do-over then I have an arbitrator for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wJS3j9Zgrc

I think Whine Lover will enjoy....

 

[NAA Pilot]

From An AA Pilots:


Is this really all you got? Jamie Baker, airline analyst at JP Morgan,
asking AMR chairman and CEO Gerard Arpey about FlightPlan 2020
The first-quarter issue of Flagship News from American Airlines
management focuses on Flight Plan 2020, AMRs so-called
framework for success. The plan has five central themes:
Invest Wisely
Earn Customer Loyalty
Strengthen and Defend Our Global Network
Be A Good Place For Good People
Fly Profitably
While we can debate ad nauseam the merits and demerits of
each of these, what is sadly lacking in their plan is any real
strategic vision that would reclaim American Airlines position
as the pre-eminent global carrier that it once was.
In a January 19 article in the Dallas Morning News, it was
reported that American Airlines 2009 capacity, measured in
available seat miles flown, fell to its lowest level since 1991, in
spite of the acquisitions of both Reno and TWA. At the same
time that most of the network carriers, AA included, have
retrenched to capacity measures of almost 20 years ago, there
has been a huge increase in industry capacity for Southwest,
JetBlue and Air Tran. Looked at another way, American Airlines
has not shared in any industry growth in two decades.
One could easily state that by the late 1990s, American
Airlines was one of the most powerful franchises in the industry
and seemed unstoppable. Contrast that to today, where we are
rapidly becoming an industry has-been, content to live in the
past, while we watch our network peers like Delta and
United/Continental shape the future.
American Airlines reached a position of supremacy because
of a man with a vision, Bob Crandall. At the time, Mr. Crandall
was the perfect mix he cared about operations as well as the
balance sheet.
He was also a visionary. Under him, American Airlines was the
first to create a frequent flyer loyalty program, the first airline
with revenue management systems. In addition, American was
extremely competitive.Mr. Crandall worked to grow the company
into a global enterprise, and he wasnt afraid to take risks and
engage labor when necessary. He was not always right, and he
had some very sharp elbows, but no one ever doubted Mr.
Crandalls integrity and the fact that he sincerely cared about his
airline, and wanted to create and grow something special.
Since that time, American has languished under its current
management a risk-adverse, finance-centric group devoid of
ideas, strong on numbers, inept with people, and lost when it
comes to customers and operating a world-class airline. While
the people running this airline are great number-crunchers, very
adept at raising capital and restructuring debt instruments, they
simply dont seem to have the most basic understanding of how
to empower and motivate employees and operate a business
that revolves around customer service. Real leadership requires
some level of self-sacrifice and also a desire to lead by example;
something that is almost completely lacking in the halls of
CentrePort.
Backed by a board of directors that rubber-stamps their
mediocre performance in exchange for lifetime positive space
first-class travel, those managers can raise capital, but they cant
deploy it effectively. Their only creativity seemingly lies in
designing deceptive, self-serving executive compensation plans.
It seems as if employees at American Airlines are to bemanaged,
not led. Customers are treated with contempt. Morale and
employee dislocations are never a consideration in the neverending
rounds of cutbacks and shrinkages. The culture here is
toxic, with the only attempt so far to change it stomped out by
the ongoing PUP stampede, followed by the condescending
explanation that employees just dont understand executive
compensation.
They are making a series of classic mistakes in a difficult
industry by attempting to manage everything through a laserlike
focus on instant financial results, rather than worrying
about providing a great product to their customers and an
engaging place to work for their employees. Part of their Flight
Plan 2020 is to be a good place for good people. Seriously?
Does anybody really buy into that? Is that all they can come up
with? We have a completely demoralized workforce, as evidenced
by our dismal customer service rankings. We have thousands of ......

Continued

 

[NAA Pilot]

Continued:

pilots who have been furloughed, recalled and furloughed yet
again. They are good people. Why not provide them a good
place now, instead of 10 years from now?
When economic blows occur in an industry, it is important to
quickly reduce capacity, constrain spending and preserve capital.
We did that after Sept. 11, albeit somewhat late. But since that
time, the stock market and the economy has fallen, risen, fallen,
and is rising rapidly again and despite solid advance bookings,
American Airlines seems to just keep getting smaller.
We have all heard that you cannot shrink an airline to
profitability. If you step back and look at American Airlines, that
is exactly what management is trying to do. They continue to
pare the weaker segments from our route map, but like whacka-
mole, each time we do that, more appear. Every time they pull
back, or outsource more of our f lying, they always have a good
story for the media, complete with rationalizations that, on the
surface, seem to make sense each time. But taken collectively,
they point to an enterprise that’s slowly failing. Contrast that
with Delta managements decision to continue to expand their
global reach, much of it at our expense, while carriers like
Southwest, Air Tran and Spirit do the same domestically. What
we need are new markets, new ways of serving our customers,
and new ideas on how to grow and strengthen American
Airlines and its employees.
Another classic mistake that AA management continues to
make is that they try to make their customers fit into the service
they provide, rather than provide the service their customers
want. No one wants to f ly on an RJ if they did, Southwest
would be operating them in massive numbers.
Why doesnt management try to match our service with the
needs of the customers living in our non-hub markets? Instead,
we try to route everyone through our hubs. Mid-size city after
mid-size city has become relegated to RJ-only service as we
attempt to mold our customers expectations to the system we
have designed. Southwest just comes into each one and picks up
where we fail, thus causing another round of whack-a-mole
realignments and more pain for our airlines employees and
customers.
Managements latest response after having neglected the
JFK/LGA/BOS market was to engage in a domestic interline
agreement with JetBlue. Adding insult to injury, the agreement
was immediately followed by a significant reduction in AA flying
at BOS and subsequent pilot displacements.
We can only hope that someday, a leader with a vision will
again come along to run American and turn it back into the
great airline it once was.

 

[TWA Dude]

I am going to let the "lucid discussion" remark slide, although I believe that is not at all what you intend.

You stated your opinion as fact, I called you on it, and your reply was you can state whatever you like. You might as well change your handle to MCDU or St. Nic if you're not going to even try to carry on a rational discussion.

I see that you are all the way down to quoting very little, meaning you really have no rebuttal to any of my points.

Actually, after the first statement of your post I lost interest in reading several paragraphs. My lack of rebuttal only means I didn't think them worthy of a response.

You've boiled it down to "binding means binding"-which is where you guys always go with it.

Long-winded explanations are unneeded. The Ease/West dispute is simple. Entering binding arbitration entails the risk of hating the result. If one doesn't want that risk don't do it. The East hates the Nicolau Award. It doesn't matter how how passionately or eloquently they state their hatred. It's binding. Trying to cram down a different list that favors the East is a violation of USAPA's DFR. One trial proved that and if necessary another will reprove it. What else needs to be said?

I'll leave you with this, binding SHOULD mean binding unless it cannot pass an appeal of some sort.

That's a contradiction. It's either binding or it isn't. If it isn't you should call it conditional arbitration. That's not what took place and you can't change it ex post facto.

I think this arbitration would not pass an appeal.

I disagree but that's irrelevant.

I also think that your date of hire should mean something across the ALPA spectrum--or there should be a measure to objectively quantify an ALPA/ALPA merger pilot's standing in seniority.

Nicolau considered that. Don't forget his decision came after four weeks of hearings. And don't forget the two pilot neutrals agreed with substantially all of it.

Anything else leave this outcome as a possibility.

As it should be.

 

[say again]

You stated your opinion as fact, I called you on it, and your reply was you can state whatever you like. You might as well change your handle to MCDU or St. Nic if you're not going to even try to carry on a rational discussion.Actually, after the first statement of your post I lost interest in reading several paragraphs. My lack of rebuttal only means I didn't think them worthy of a response.Long-winded explanations are unneeded. The Ease/West dispute is simple. Entering binding arbitration entails the risk of hating the result. If one doesn't want that risk don't do it. The East hates the Nicolau Award. It doesn't matter how how passionately or eloquently they state their hatred. It's binding. Trying to cram down a different list that favors the East is a violation of USAPA's DFR. One trial proved that and if necessary another will reprove it. What else needs to be said?That's a contradiction. It's either binding or it isn't. If it isn't you should call it conditional arbitration. That's not what took place and you can't change it ex post facto.I disagree but that's irrelevant.Nicolau considered that. Don't forget his decision came after four weeks of hearings. And don't forget the two pilot neutrals agreed with substantially all of it.As it should be.

You're arguing with a brick wall. They will never understand, as their greed, arrogance and irrationality gets in the way.

 

[St. Nic]

You're arguing with a brick wall. They will never understand, as their greed, arrogance and irrationality gets in the way.

Says the "impartial AWA pilot"

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Says the "impartial AWA pilot"

..........Says the lowest paid "legacy pilot.":laugh: