What if USAir merged with American(DOH west?)

[St. Nic]

THe west needs to negotiate- they have been holding up the train for to long. I for one would lke to see some reason over there, but just dont see it. They continue to cling to thier lottery ticket and refuse to budge.

 

[PuffDriver]

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

Actually, it didn't suck to be an Airways pilot for a long time. They had a very enviable industry contract, more so than America West, for years and years. They kind of flew under the radar in that regard. In 2001, I would say that they had probably the 3rd best contract--right behind DAL, and UAL.

The simple fact is that the arbitrator blew it. He created a list so egregious that an entire pilot group voted out ALPA. When was the last time that happened? How many mergers have happened since then? You're going to tell me that all of them went off without a hitch? I think not. You can't get 3500 pilots to agree on what color the sky is, and they banded together in order to tell ALPA to go pound sand. Whether you agree with what they did or not, you have to admit that it is an impressive feat.

USAirways financial condition. Yes they were in BK--twice. How much of AWA did the government own due to ATSB loans? Anyone? Of course we all know the CEO wouldn't say whatever was necessary to push a merger through--like an airline was going out of business without the merger. :erm:
I suppose that since you westies are soooo trusting of Doug, that you will believe him when he says he can't afford to pay you more during contract negotiations.:erm:

..and finally the list. Look at the pay rates at AWA WITHOUT being in BK. :erm: It took 2 BKs to knock USAir down to AWA levels, and lose the pension. When did AWAs pension go away? :erm: Of course, we know that USAir was toast without the merger :erm:. Of course, Delta, UAL, and NWA made it out of BK, at a much worse financial time, without mergers. But USAir, with a massive presence in D.c. was going the way of the dodo. Um, sure.

Furloughs. I am still just flabbergasted that that the most senior, "furloughs" at UsAir never even left the property. They went from right seat on whatever to left seat on a 195, being dispatched by USAir dispatchers, under the USAir operating certificate. Yet they were furloughed :erm:. Whatever. I blame ALPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking 1 day out of a pilots career, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS--all kinda stupid. As you can see, picking the wrong day could have been devastating with regard to a pilot's career expectations at a multitude of airlines. Getting the "luck of the draw" with regards to your career expectations is not the best way to control the fate of a pilot group. There are better ways, which will lead to much more objective list mergers--and thus less dissention in the ranks.

One thing for sure, they'd better get their act together somehow. More and more, it looks as if consolidation is the wave of this day's future. It is doubtful that anyone will touch it with a 10 foot pole the way it is now.

 

[TWA Dude]

Oh I see you want to use a snapshot that includes what the airline managements said was going to be happening "today, tomorrow and next week."

What I want is irrelevant. I'm simply restating ALPA Merger Policy as interpreted by the arbitrator. Your interpretation of career expectations differs from the arbitrator's and the two pilot neutrals who agreed with him. Maybe you'll be chosen to be a "neutral" for the next arbitration?

Good luck I hope you all get it figured out before both sides take the airline down through their own pride and unwillingness to budge.

Maybe pride is a factor on the East but for the West we have the law on our side.

your favorite USAPA apologist

Since you're just about the only one the competition isn't very challenging.

 

[TWA Dude]

The simple fact is that the arbitrator blew it.

You'll do much better in life if you learn to distinguish fact from opinion.

He created a list so egregious that an entire pilot group voted out ALPA.

Following your skewed logic, let's say Nicolau had ruled DOH (which staples 2/3 of the AWA list behind the junior active AAA pilot) and then we went irrationally ballistic like the East did. Being only 1/3 of the size of the combined pilot group our attempts to pressure Prater would've fallen on deaf ears and our attempt to get around binding arbitration by changing unions would've failed to garner enough votes. Would we then be able to state as a "fact" that the arbitrator screwed up?

Furloughs. I am still just flabbergasted that that the most senior, "furloughs" at UsAir never even left the property. They went from right seat on whatever to left seat on a 195, being dispatched by USAir dispatchers, under the USAir operating certificate. Yet they were furloughed :erm:.

Correct. Kind of screwy but that's what happened.

I blame ALPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking 1 day out of a pilots career, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS--all kinda stupid.

I blame USAPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking a pilot's date of hire, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS-- all kinda stupid.

Every merger is different therefore no single integration methodology is fair.

Of course you blame ALPA. The East is never responsible for anything. I'll bet you think it was ALPA on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in '63 too.

It is doubtful that anyone will touch it with a 10 foot pole the way it is now.

Gee, I wonder whose fault that is?

 

[PuffDriver]

You'll do much better in life if you learn to distinguish fact from opinion.

It was my opinion. The history of the after effects support it.

Following your skewed logic, let's say Nicolau had ruled DOH (which staples 2/3 of the AWA list behind the junior active AAA pilot) and then we went irrationally ballistic like the East did. Being only 1/3 of the size of the combined pilot group our attempts to pressure Prater would've fallen on deaf ears and our attempt to get around binding arbitration by changing unions would've failed to garner enough votes. Would we then be able to state as a "fact" that the arbitrator screwed up?

I don't know. Could you have been able to arrange such a coup? That was my point. Thee have been a lot of mergers, yet this particular one managed to unite a pilot group like never before, and actually caused them to vote ALPA off of the property. You call it greed, ego, whatever. Fair enough. What triggered that greed, ego, whatever? That is my question. USAir was just like any other pilot group. Could yours have pulled it off? #1 you didn't have the numbers--it sucks to be in the minority. #2 Even if you did, would your group collectively have been so outraged as to get it done. The TWA pilots certainly did not when they got the hose job. BTW, the end position of the USAir east pilots was don DOH, it was DOH based on LOS. Big difference, IMO, between the two--especially with the USAir group.

I blame USAPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking a pilot's date of hire, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS-- all kinda stupid.

So then DOH for bidding schedules, vacation, travel, and just about everything else in the industry is also not fair. Why do we even have a seniority system?

Every merger is different therefore no single integration methodology is fair

The difference is that DOH is not something which can be subjective--like any other methodology which can be dreamed up. It is undeniable, unable to be fluffed in order to look better. It's right there, and unable to blindside anybody, causing rift. Nicolau even screwed up the fence,which came down before the ink was even dry on the list. The reason the fence came down? Yup, a charge led by none other than the West pilots because they didn't have the fortitude enough in the past to secure a pension--for which they blame ALPA. Oh what a tangled web we weave when arguing on the web boards. :laugh:

Of course you blame ALPA. The East is never responsible for anything. I'll bet you think it was ALPA on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in '63 too.

Just to be clear, I am not a USAir E or W pilot. I just don't choose to cast the entire blame on the East. There is plenty to go around.

Gee, I wonder whose fault that is?

Both. ALPA merger policy provides the opportunity to work it out between yourselves. If you had done so, we wouldn't be here talking about it. It's funny that if you are indeed ex-TWA, as your name suggests, you would have such an easy time defending such an egregious award after the beating you took from AA. Could it be that you are biased? If you are an E or W pilot, you cannot be unbiased. End of argument.

 

[Quiet Flight]

They continue to cling to their lottery ticket and refuse to budge.

Uh...what?! Lottery ticket? You think USAir is a "lottery ticket"?! Maybe a Skee Ball ticket...

 

[eaglesview]

TWA,

Maybe I am not the on;y "USAPA apologist." I do hope though that I get to keep my position as your number 1 USAPA apologist.

 

[TWA Dude]

It was my opinion.

Then don't state your opinion as fact anymore.

The history of the after effects support it.

Actually, the history of the after effects proves something quite different -- something proven in court.

That is my question. USAir was just like any other pilot group. Could yours have pulled it off?

It is very presumptuous to imply that the AWA pilots would've attempted to get around binding arbitration. Not all pilots lack integrity as the Easties do (and apparently the handful of non-Easties who support their treacherous actions).

#1 you didn't have the numbers--it sucks to be in the minority.

Which is why merger policies exist: to protect smaller pilot groups from egregious larger groups.

BTW, the end position of the USAir east pilots was don DOH, it was DOH based on LOS. Big difference, IMO, between the two--especially with the USAir group.

Fine. Big irrelevant difference. Nicolau didn't buy it.

So then DOH for bidding schedules, vacation, travel, and just about everything else in the industry is also not fair. Why do we even have a seniority system?

Seriously, do you really not understand the difference between each airline's seniority and combining seniority? Lemme ask you this, something no Eastie has even tried to answer. On the day the merger was announced the bottom US Airways FO was a 1988 hire. Would you say he was junior or senior? I say he was junior. Having nobody below you employed makes you junior. The Easties make him senior to 2/3 of the AWA pilot group. So how can one pilot be both junior and senior at the same time?

The difference is that DOH is not something which can be subjective--like any other methodology which can be dreamed up.

You're right. That's why it isn't ALPA's merger policy to impose DOH. Every merger is difference therefore no one integration policy is fair.

Yup, a charge led by none other than the West pilots because they didn't have the fortitude enough in the past to secure a pension--for which they blame ALPA.

That's right, if only pilots had more fortitude we'd all make 500k/year, work eight days a month and have a pension to support our great-grand kids. You've got it all figured out. Who do you work for again?

Just to be clear, I am not a USAir E or W pilot. I just don't choose to cast the entire blame on the East. There is plenty to go around.

Ah, yes, the blame game again. The West is to blame for refusing to concede seniority to the East. Guilty as charged!

It's funny that if you are indeed ex-TWA, as your name suggests, you would have such an easy time defending such an egregious award after the beating you took from AA.

I'm glad you brought up the TWA affair. You see, the Easties are trying to do to us exactly what the APA did to TWA: impose their own seniority integration. The APA is terrified of the idea of an arbitrator because they know it would be more fair.
This is what pilot groups do when given the chance, they take advantage of the other group. That's why I favor ALPA Merger Policy (even the new, revised version) so much. It's a fair process. And unlike the Easties and you I understand that binding arbitration is binding even if I don't like the result.

Could it be that you are biased? If you are an E or W pilot, you cannot be unbiased. End of argument.

Wow, you just proved the sky is blue! Of course I'm biased, 100%. So what? At least I can admit my bias. What's yours?

 

[Cowboy75]

ALPA merger policy provides the opportunity to work it out between yourselves. If you had done so, we wouldn't be here talking about it. It's funny that if you are indeed ex-TWA, as your name suggests, you would have such an easy time defending such an egregious award after the beating you took from AA. Could it be that you are biased? If you are an E or W pilot, you cannot be unbiased. End of argument.

What a bunch of blah, blah, blah in true USAPA fashion. There is nothing egregious about the decision. Nic was an arbitrator chosen by your side and we agreed to comply with the results. There will be no end of the argument until we frustrate USAPA so much with endless lawsuits that they jump on the slide an exit this property.

Buh Bye

 

[PuffDriver]

Then don't state your opinion as fact anymore.

I'll state whatever I please.

Actually, the history of the after effects proves something quite different -- something proven in court.

Would that be the court that just allowed an appeal to show no harm?

It is very presumptuous to imply that the AWA pilots would've attempted to get around binding arbitration. Not all pilots lack integrity as the Easties do (and apparently the handful of non-Easties who support their treacherous actions).

Here is the quote from you to which I was referring:

"Following your skewed logic, let's say Nicolau had ruled DOH (which staples 2/3 of the AWA list behind the junior active AAA pilot) and then we went irrationally ballistic like the East did. Being only 1/3 of the size of the combined pilot group our attempts to pressure Prater would've fallen on deaf ears and our attempt to get around binding arbitration by changing unions would've failed to garner enough votes. Would we then be able to state as a "fact" that the arbitrator screwed up?"

I merely responded in kind. The was no presumption. Get your arguments straight, and then we'll debate.

Which is why merger policies exist: to protect smaller pilot groups from egregious larger groups.

You are way off base here. Both APA and ALPA had merger policies, but that did not prevent a rogering of the TWA pilots. Do you realize that ALPA merger policy changed after your debacle. Why do you think that is??:erm:
FWIW, there should be an appeal process to arbitration for exactly this case, IMO. In the event of failure of the appeal, then it's binding.

Fine. Big irrelevant difference. Nicolau didn't buy it.

A neutral noted it, however. You know, an actual pilot. I guess you ran out of bad logic on this one.

Seriously, do you really not understand the difference between each airline's seniority and combining seniority? Lemme ask you this, something no Eastie has even tried to answer. On the day the merger was announced the bottom US Airways FO was a 1988 hire. Would you say he was junior or senior? I say he was junior. Having nobody below you employed makes you junior. The Easties make him senior to 2/3 of the AWA pilot group. So how can one pilot be both junior and senior at the same time?

Sure, I understand. What you are not willing to concede is that I don't agree that they are all that different. You guys are hanging your hat on the fact that AWA was not technically in BK. You leave our of your quoting of me the small blurb about the govt owning 1/3 of AWA, and perhaps that had something to do with the fact that you were NOT in BK. You conveniently overlook the fact that your contract has always sucked while USAir has been the victim of fellow ALPA airline groups hanging on the very bar they were trying to raise. You leave out the fact that in your myopic mind USAir was on the brink of liquidation, when in FACT they weren't. You leave out the blurb that a 1988 pilot at USAir was in many people's opinions, NOT the bottom pilot at USAir. You leave out the fact that the ruling, almost instantaneously, gave AWA pilots access to international flying, more bases, more diversity, more furlough cushion, and more leverage, while taking those very same things aways from several USAir pilots--a violation of ALPA merger policy. You leave out the fact that USAir east didn't need USAPA. All they really had to do was just never vote successfully on a JCBA. That was their only real misstep, IMO.

You're right. That's why it isn't ALPA's merger policy to impose DOH. Every merger is difference therefore no one integration policy is fair.

You are wrong. ALPA's merger policy wasn't DOH, because certain groups had gotten it removed from the policy manual due to their size and subsequent relatively new DOH. Check your history, and then come back to the fray. It has changed since yours, and will likely change again. The fact that every merger is different is what leads to the bloodbaths, which is exactly the reason WHY the policy needs to be subjective, and the same every time. Your making this very easy.

That's right, if only pilots had more fortitude we'd all make 500k/year, work eight days a month and have a pension to support our great-grand kids. You've got it all figured out. Who do you work for again?

What does this say? Nothing. That's right nothing. I suppose you thought that you had to say something, when you probably just should have conceded the point.

I'm glad you brought up the TWA affair. You see, the Easties are trying to do to us exactly what the APA did to TWA: impose their own seniority integration. The APA is terrified of the idea of an arbitrator because they know it would be more fair.
This is what pilot groups do when given the chance, they take advantage of the other group. That's why I favor ALPA Merger Policy (even the new, revised version) so much. It's a fair process. And unlike the Easties and you I understand that binding arbitration is binding even if I don't like the result.

See, and I think my point was that the East received an unfair shake, just as the TWA pilots did. Proves my point all the more that there needs to be an objective standard of merger policy between ALPA carriers. I really don't care what it. Make it eye color for all I care. Just don't make it subject to interpretation, career expectations, whims, opinions of human beings, etc. I will concede that binding should mean binding, as long as it is fair. There is no such thing as mostly fair, more fair, or less fair. Something is either fair, or it is not. The award was arguably not fair. Whether it was or not should not be up to you or me, but a truly impartial panel of peers. Once that is confirmed, then binding should mean binding. I think that east side has a valid argument. How about the west side allowing a panel of experts looking at the award today, and judging its fairness. THEN the east giving up all recourse to anything but Nic. I mean, if you are so sure you are right, it should pass the sniff test from a panel of peers, right? Of course it's not, because the west continues behind their only veil of fairness: two words-binding arbitration.

Wow, you just proved the sky is blue! Of course I'm biased, 100%. So what? At least I can admit my bias. What's yours?

Again, pretty much nothing said here. My "bias" is WHAT is right, not WHO is right.

Nuff said