What if USAir merged with American(DOH west?)

[say again]

What if USAirways merged/ was aquired by/ whatever/ with American. If American tried to staple USAir, the West pilots would be screaming for DOH. Period. DOH would look okay now.

To bad that is not the situation at hand. I lost all respect for you east guys on here.

 

[AutoBus]

I know the west pilots would like to believe that it is that simple but it's not. When the "snapshot" fot this merger was taken you have to freeze what both airlines look like. You can not pretend to look into the future and say this or that was going to happen. So assuming status quo reality is the east pilots would have upgraded much faster than the west pilots would have based on the age of their pilot group alone. However with this relative seniority the junior east pilot goes from a 7 year upgrade to much later down the road yet you say DOH gives him a windfall. Relative seniority does the reverse.

Both pilot groups need to get back together and start talking common sense.

No, all of the factors you are talking about were considered in the Nic, including reserving the top 517 spots for the east, the fence on widebodies, the nic even wisely accounted for the possibility of a change to the age 60 rule and removed those fences.

Quite frankly, the only upgrade your precious junior east pilot was looking at was a promotion to a assistant to the assistant manager at home depot.

Just prior to the merger, active east pilots were bailing out to go anywhere, even old amercia west. They knew the end was near.

 

[TWA Dude]

Quite frankly, the only upgrade your precious junior east pilot was looking at was a promotion to a assistant to the assistant manager at home depot.

Believe it or not, Eaglesview isn't an Eastie but a United pilot. He believes so passionately in DOH he forgives their outrageous behavior.

 

[Jaffo]

I know the west pilots would like to believe that it is that simple but it's not. When the "snapshot" fot this merger was taken you have to freeze what both airlines look like. You can not pretend to look into the future and say this or that was going to happen. So assuming status quo reality is the east pilots would have upgraded much faster than the west pilots would have based on the age of their pilot group alone. However with this relative seniority the junior east pilot goes from a 7 year upgrade to much later down the road yet you say DOH gives him a windfall. Relative seniority does the reverse.

Both pilot groups need to get back together and start talking common sense.

Really? Then why don't the easties live up to their end of the bargain? You talk about the "SNAPSHOT" that was taken Sept. 2005 but USAPA wants to reset that snapshot to after all recalls were complete and include all the pilots that were furloughed at that time of the merger to have them get their original date of hire (nevermind that they have no longevity). The expected time to upgrade at AWA at the time of the merger was not seven years but five years. The result of this "reset" would be that 85% of the pilots from AWA would be on the bottom of the list.

 

[Flybywire44]

How many east trolls are there?...I mean really! lol. What a sad lot.

Sad lot? ROFL.

 

[aa73]

Would you guys stop spouting B.S. and realize that any merger more than 51% involves binding arbitration per the Senate ruling? Stapling is not allowed.

Now, as to whether the arbitration would be considered fair.. that's another story. But it HAS to be arbitrated.

 

[Metrojet]

Two pilot groups meant to be together. I hope the rumor of Republic taking over the West is true. We'd get the better end of it.

TWA Dude -

Although I disagree with almost everything you post - I say "be careful for what you wish for" - you never know what management can come up with - sometimes it is better to stay with a "known" rather than hope for the "unknown" - no matter how bad you feel about the "known"

Metrojet

 

[Jaffo]

TWA Dude -

Although I disagree with almost everything you post - I say "be careful for what you wish for" - you never know what management can come up with - sometimes it is better to stay with a "known" rather than hope for the "unknown" - no matter how bad you feel about the "known"

Metrojet

It goes both ways (good or bad) thats why it's "unknown". When the "known" is as bad as it is now the "unknown" is pretty attractive.

 

[TWA Dude]

I say "be careful for what you wish for"

I guess you missed the point of my post. The point is in a merger with AA the APA would chew you up and spit you out. I happen to have some knowledge and experience with them (not to mention I'm still considered an APA member). If there's a way around Bond-McKaskill, any kind of loophole whatsoever, they'll find it, staple the vast majority of US, and tell you they think it's fair.

I really don't think we'll be merging with AA but if we do, for the record, I favor binding arbitration and I'll accept the result come what may.

 

[cactusboy53]

I know the west pilots would like to believe that it is that simple but it's not. When the "snapshot" for this merger was taken you have to freeze what both airlines look like. You can not pretend to look into the future and say this or that was going to happen. So assuming status quo reality is the east pilots would have upgraded much faster than the west pilots would have based on the age of their pilot group alone. However with this relative seniority the junior east pilot goes from a 7 year upgrade to much later down the road yet you say DOH gives him a windfall. Relative seniority does the reverse.

Both pilot groups need to get back together and start talking common sense.

Eagle;
When the PID was taken the following were happening:
1. AWA brought 140 aircraft into the pot. AWA was hiring, upgrading, getting more new aircraft and making money (past two+ quartYers?). AWA was the first major airline to have an improved post-9/11 contract.
2. AAA was NOT hiring, had continued to shrink, downgrade & furlough.
3. AAA was in bankruptcy for the (3rd?) time. How close to the ultimate edge of the cliff were they? A lot closer than AWA.

You said it. You must FREEZE both airlines at that very moment, and make your determinations. By the time we started going through the mediation and arbitration began, the furloughed pilots were returning en masse. PID now? No, unfortunately not.

 

[MCDU]

Eagle;
When the PID was taken the following were happening:
1. AWA brought 140 aircraft into the pot. AWA was hiring, upgrading, getting more new aircraft and making money (past two+ quartYers?). AWA was the first major airline to have an improved post-9/11 contract.
2. AAA was NOT hiring, had continued to shrink, downgrade & furlough.
3. AAA was in bankruptcy for the (3rd?) time. How close to the ultimate edge of the cliff were they? A lot closer than AWA.

You said it. You must FREEZE both airlines at that very moment, and make your determinations. By the time we started going through the mediation and arbitration began, the furloughed pilots were returning en masse. PID now? No, unfortunately not.

More garbage written by the bible thumper.

I guess you missed the part when Kirby again says AWA would have been gone without the merger. Just watch the latest crew news PHX. He again tells the whiny young PFT pilot that AWA was toast with out the merger. The PFT generation at its best. The greed and sense of entitlement really shows. Especially with the last idiot trying to portray how East pilots get favoritism.

Anyway, I guess somehow DOH does matter. Just listen to the youngster AWA pilot go on about getting recalled. He does not understand why pilots that were hired after them are getting recalled. I guess Westies are starting to understand that DOH matters. The pilots should get recalled based on DOH. I got a few yellow lanyards I can spare for does effected Westies.

M

 

[Quiet Flight]

What if USAirways merged/ was aquired by/ whatever/ with American?

The world would implode...

 

[cactusboy53]

More garbage written by the bible thumper.

I guess you missed the part when Kirby again says AWA would have been gone without the merger. Just watch the latest crew news PHX. He again tells the whiny young PFT pilot that AWA was toast with out the merger. The PFT generation at its best. The greed and sense of entitlement really shows. Especially with the last idiot trying to portray how East pilots get favoritism.

Anyway, I guess somehow DOH does matter. Just listen to the youngster AWA pilot go on about getting recalled. He does not understand why pilots that were hired after them are getting recalled. I guess Westies are starting to understand that DOH matters. The pilots should get recalled based on DOH. I got a few yellow lanyards I can spare for does effected Westies.

M

.
Thanks for the new Nom de guerre, M. I have been a Christian for many years, and try to read the bible every day. I will wear it proudly

My response to eagle was to remind him of how the ALPA merger policy works (and now the Bond-McCaskill sponsored legislation regarding airline mergers) when choosing a PID. Scott Kirby and Doug Parker really have little to do with choosing a PID.

It seems rather disingenous to pick and choose what sound bites you want from your reference stack of LCC management. Do we then believe that the snap back wages will never happen at LCC? Do we then believe the statement "this merger will never harm any AWA employees"?

The "westies" remain vigilant in this little David & Goliath skirmish. We stand together to defend our rights. We support each other, and are well supported by others in the community.

M, it sounds like these events are really beginning to bother you. I hope that you have a good and uneventful day. May God Bless you and yours today.

CB

 

[joevollers]

.....

 

[Turtle21]

.
Thanks for the new Nom de guerre, M. I have been a Christian for many years, and try to read the bible every day. I will wear it proudly
...

Got a map? ...Project Von Bora...

www.vonbora.org

 

[Caveman]

You can not pretend to look into the future and say this or that was going to happen. So assuming status quo reality is the east pilots would have upgraded much faster than the west pilots would have based on the age of their pilot group alone.

Did you even read what you were writing? You rail against making predictions and in the very next sentence you make a prediction.

This is why USAPA and the East have lost all credibility with those of us on the sidelines. Your reasoning is illogical and inconsistent. The guy that punches his wife in the face thinks he has a good reason for doing it. Everybody else sees him as an immature person with no control over his emotions. He justifies his bad behavior by blaming his wife for causing the problem in the first place. It's all irrelevant. There's no valid reason for him hitting her just like there's no valid reason for USAPA to keep dragging this out.

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Well said Caveman. Well said indeed.

 

[eaglesview]

Did you even read what you were writing? You rail against making predictions and in the very next sentence you make a prediction.

This is why USAPA and the East have lost all credibility with those of us on the sidelines. Your reasoning is illogical and inconsistent. The guy that punches his wife in the face thinks he has a good reason for doing it. Everybody else sees him as an immature person with no control over his emotions. He justifies his bad behavior by blaming his wife for causing the problem in the first place. It's all irrelevant. There's no valid reason for him hitting her just like there's no valid reason for USAPA to keep dragging this out.

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

Dude it's simple math. Had the east stayed status quo and the west did the same, the east would upgrade faster as they are much older. It really isn't hard to figure out.

PS I am not with USAir, so I have no frustration to take out on AWA, sorry to disappoint you.

 

[TWA Dude]

Had the east stayed status quo and the west did the same, the east would upgrade faster as they are much older.

Your memory of the status quo is incorrect. At the time the merger was announced AWA was hiring to meet scheduled aircraft deliveries and US was furloughing due to aircraft losses. Nicolau was well aware of the different demographic of the pilot groups yet the short-term career expectations differed so greatly they overrode the retirement issue.

 

[eaglesview]

Your memory of the status quo is incorrect. At the time the merger was announced AWA was hiring to meet scheduled aircraft deliveries and US was furloughing due to aircraft losses. Nicolau was well aware of the different demographic of the pilot groups yet the short-term career expectations differed so greatly they overrode the retirement issue.

Oh I see you want to use a snapshot that includes what the airline managements said was going to be happening "today, tomorrow and next week." That's more of a short motion picture with an ending made up to favor the one that is doing the interpreting. In my mind a "snapshot" is more of a still picture, in which case a better arguement would be the snapshot shouldn't have included the furloughies.

Good luck I hope you all get it figured out before both sides take the airline down through their own pride and unwillingness to budge.

signed

your favorite USAPA apologist