What if USAir merged with American(DOH west?)

[MCDU]

Eagle;
When the PID was taken the following were happening:
1. AWA brought 140 aircraft into the pot. AWA was hiring, upgrading, getting more new aircraft and making money (past two+ quartYers?). AWA was the first major airline to have an improved post-9/11 contract.
2. AAA was NOT hiring, had continued to shrink, downgrade & furlough.
3. AAA was in bankruptcy for the (3rd?) time. How close to the ultimate edge of the cliff were they? A lot closer than AWA.

You said it. You must FREEZE both airlines at that very moment, and make your determinations. By the time we started going through the mediation and arbitration began, the furloughed pilots were returning en masse. PID now? No, unfortunately not.

More garbage written by the bible thumper.

I guess you missed the part when Kirby again says AWA would have been gone without the merger. Just watch the latest crew news PHX. He again tells the whiny young PFT pilot that AWA was toast with out the merger. The PFT generation at its best. The greed and sense of entitlement really shows. Especially with the last idiot trying to portray how East pilots get favoritism.

Anyway, I guess somehow DOH does matter. Just listen to the youngster AWA pilot go on about getting recalled. He does not understand why pilots that were hired after them are getting recalled. I guess Westies are starting to understand that DOH matters. The pilots should get recalled based on DOH. I got a few yellow lanyards I can spare for does effected Westies.

M

 

[Quiet Flight]

What if USAirways merged/ was aquired by/ whatever/ with American?

The world would implode...

 

[cactusboy53]

More garbage written by the bible thumper.

I guess you missed the part when Kirby again says AWA would have been gone without the merger. Just watch the latest crew news PHX. He again tells the whiny young PFT pilot that AWA was toast with out the merger. The PFT generation at its best. The greed and sense of entitlement really shows. Especially with the last idiot trying to portray how East pilots get favoritism.

Anyway, I guess somehow DOH does matter. Just listen to the youngster AWA pilot go on about getting recalled. He does not understand why pilots that were hired after them are getting recalled. I guess Westies are starting to understand that DOH matters. The pilots should get recalled based on DOH. I got a few yellow lanyards I can spare for does effected Westies.

M

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Thanks for the new Nom de guerre, M. I have been a Christian for many years, and try to read the bible every day. I will wear it proudly

My response to eagle was to remind him of how the ALPA merger policy works (and now the Bond-McCaskill sponsored legislation regarding airline mergers) when choosing a PID. Scott Kirby and Doug Parker really have little to do with choosing a PID.

It seems rather disingenous to pick and choose what sound bites you want from your reference stack of LCC management. Do we then believe that the snap back wages will never happen at LCC? Do we then believe the statement "this merger will never harm any AWA employees"?

The "westies" remain vigilant in this little David & Goliath skirmish. We stand together to defend our rights. We support each other, and are well supported by others in the community.

M, it sounds like these events are really beginning to bother you. I hope that you have a good and uneventful day. May God Bless you and yours today.

CB

 

[joevollers]

.....

 

[Turtle21]

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Thanks for the new Nom de guerre, M. I have been a Christian for many years, and try to read the bible every day. I will wear it proudly
...

Got a map? ...Project Von Bora...

www.vonbora.org

 

[Caveman]

You can not pretend to look into the future and say this or that was going to happen. So assuming status quo reality is the east pilots would have upgraded much faster than the west pilots would have based on the age of their pilot group alone.

Did you even read what you were writing? You rail against making predictions and in the very next sentence you make a prediction.

This is why USAPA and the East have lost all credibility with those of us on the sidelines. Your reasoning is illogical and inconsistent. The guy that punches his wife in the face thinks he has a good reason for doing it. Everybody else sees him as an immature person with no control over his emotions. He justifies his bad behavior by blaming his wife for causing the problem in the first place. It's all irrelevant. There's no valid reason for him hitting her just like there's no valid reason for USAPA to keep dragging this out.

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

 

[Quiet Flight]

Well said Caveman. Well said indeed.

 

[eaglesview]

Did you even read what you were writing? You rail against making predictions and in the very next sentence you make a prediction.

This is why USAPA and the East have lost all credibility with those of us on the sidelines. Your reasoning is illogical and inconsistent. The guy that punches his wife in the face thinks he has a good reason for doing it. Everybody else sees him as an immature person with no control over his emotions. He justifies his bad behavior by blaming his wife for causing the problem in the first place. It's all irrelevant. There's no valid reason for him hitting her just like there's no valid reason for USAPA to keep dragging this out.

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

Dude it's simple math. Had the east stayed status quo and the west did the same, the east would upgrade faster as they are much older. It really isn't hard to figure out.

PS I am not with USAir, so I have no frustration to take out on AWA, sorry to disappoint you.

 

[TWA Dude]

Had the east stayed status quo and the west did the same, the east would upgrade faster as they are much older.

Your memory of the status quo is incorrect. At the time the merger was announced AWA was hiring to meet scheduled aircraft deliveries and US was furloughing due to aircraft losses. Nicolau was well aware of the different demographic of the pilot groups yet the short-term career expectations differed so greatly they overrode the retirement issue.

 

[eaglesview]

Your memory of the status quo is incorrect. At the time the merger was announced AWA was hiring to meet scheduled aircraft deliveries and US was furloughing due to aircraft losses. Nicolau was well aware of the different demographic of the pilot groups yet the short-term career expectations differed so greatly they overrode the retirement issue.

Oh I see you want to use a snapshot that includes what the airline managements said was going to be happening "today, tomorrow and next week." That's more of a short motion picture with an ending made up to favor the one that is doing the interpreting. In my mind a "snapshot" is more of a still picture, in which case a better arguement would be the snapshot shouldn't have included the furloughies.

Good luck I hope you all get it figured out before both sides take the airline down through their own pride and unwillingness to budge.

signed

your favorite USAPA apologist

 

[St. Nic]

THe west needs to negotiate- they have been holding up the train for to long. I for one would lke to see some reason over there, but just dont see it. They continue to cling to thier lottery ticket and refuse to budge.

 

[PuffDriver]

We get it. It's sucked to be an Airways pilot for a long, long time. It wasn't AWA's fault. Stop trying to take out 20 years of frustration on a pilot group that had nothing to do with it. At this point it's all about emotion. Ego and pride are ruling your decision making and you guys are collectively making bad decisions. Acknowledge the SLI didn't go your way, make the best of it and move forward. Nothing USAPA is doing is helping you guys get past this. The only consistency is you guys keep suing, you keep losing and the lawyers are getting richer. Let it go.

Actually, it didn't suck to be an Airways pilot for a long time. They had a very enviable industry contract, more so than America West, for years and years. They kind of flew under the radar in that regard. In 2001, I would say that they had probably the 3rd best contract--right behind DAL, and UAL.

The simple fact is that the arbitrator blew it. He created a list so egregious that an entire pilot group voted out ALPA. When was the last time that happened? How many mergers have happened since then? You're going to tell me that all of them went off without a hitch? I think not. You can't get 3500 pilots to agree on what color the sky is, and they banded together in order to tell ALPA to go pound sand. Whether you agree with what they did or not, you have to admit that it is an impressive feat.

USAirways financial condition. Yes they were in BK--twice. How much of AWA did the government own due to ATSB loans? Anyone? Of course we all know the CEO wouldn't say whatever was necessary to push a merger through--like an airline was going out of business without the merger. :erm:
I suppose that since you westies are soooo trusting of Doug, that you will believe him when he says he can't afford to pay you more during contract negotiations.:erm:

..and finally the list. Look at the pay rates at AWA WITHOUT being in BK. :erm: It took 2 BKs to knock USAir down to AWA levels, and lose the pension. When did AWAs pension go away? :erm: Of course, we know that USAir was toast without the merger :erm:. Of course, Delta, UAL, and NWA made it out of BK, at a much worse financial time, without mergers. But USAir, with a massive presence in D.c. was going the way of the dodo. Um, sure.

Furloughs. I am still just flabbergasted that that the most senior, "furloughs" at UsAir never even left the property. They went from right seat on whatever to left seat on a 195, being dispatched by USAir dispatchers, under the USAir operating certificate. Yet they were furloughed :erm:. Whatever. I blame ALPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking 1 day out of a pilots career, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS--all kinda stupid. As you can see, picking the wrong day could have been devastating with regard to a pilot's career expectations at a multitude of airlines. Getting the "luck of the draw" with regards to your career expectations is not the best way to control the fate of a pilot group. There are better ways, which will lead to much more objective list mergers--and thus less dissention in the ranks.

One thing for sure, they'd better get their act together somehow. More and more, it looks as if consolidation is the wave of this day's future. It is doubtful that anyone will touch it with a 10 foot pole the way it is now.

 

[TWA Dude]

Oh I see you want to use a snapshot that includes what the airline managements said was going to be happening "today, tomorrow and next week."

What I want is irrelevant. I'm simply restating ALPA Merger Policy as interpreted by the arbitrator. Your interpretation of career expectations differs from the arbitrator's and the two pilot neutrals who agreed with him. Maybe you'll be chosen to be a "neutral" for the next arbitration?

Good luck I hope you all get it figured out before both sides take the airline down through their own pride and unwillingness to budge.

Maybe pride is a factor on the East but for the West we have the law on our side.

your favorite USAPA apologist

Since you're just about the only one the competition isn't very challenging.

 

[TWA Dude]

The simple fact is that the arbitrator blew it.

You'll do much better in life if you learn to distinguish fact from opinion.

He created a list so egregious that an entire pilot group voted out ALPA.

Following your skewed logic, let's say Nicolau had ruled DOH (which staples 2/3 of the AWA list behind the junior active AAA pilot) and then we went irrationally ballistic like the East did. Being only 1/3 of the size of the combined pilot group our attempts to pressure Prater would've fallen on deaf ears and our attempt to get around binding arbitration by changing unions would've failed to garner enough votes. Would we then be able to state as a "fact" that the arbitrator screwed up?

Furloughs. I am still just flabbergasted that that the most senior, "furloughs" at UsAir never even left the property. They went from right seat on whatever to left seat on a 195, being dispatched by USAir dispatchers, under the USAir operating certificate. Yet they were furloughed :erm:.

Correct. Kind of screwy but that's what happened.

I blame ALPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking 1 day out of a pilots career, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS--all kinda stupid.

I blame USAPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking a pilot's date of hire, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS-- all kinda stupid.

Every merger is different therefore no single integration methodology is fair.

Of course you blame ALPA. The East is never responsible for anything. I'll bet you think it was ALPA on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in '63 too.

It is doubtful that anyone will touch it with a 10 foot pole the way it is now.

Gee, I wonder whose fault that is?

 

[PuffDriver]

You'll do much better in life if you learn to distinguish fact from opinion.

It was my opinion. The history of the after effects support it.

Following your skewed logic, let's say Nicolau had ruled DOH (which staples 2/3 of the AWA list behind the junior active AAA pilot) and then we went irrationally ballistic like the East did. Being only 1/3 of the size of the combined pilot group our attempts to pressure Prater would've fallen on deaf ears and our attempt to get around binding arbitration by changing unions would've failed to garner enough votes. Would we then be able to state as a "fact" that the arbitrator screwed up?

I don't know. Could you have been able to arrange such a coup? That was my point. Thee have been a lot of mergers, yet this particular one managed to unite a pilot group like never before, and actually caused them to vote ALPA off of the property. You call it greed, ego, whatever. Fair enough. What triggered that greed, ego, whatever? That is my question. USAir was just like any other pilot group. Could yours have pulled it off? #1 you didn't have the numbers--it sucks to be in the minority. #2 Even if you did, would your group collectively have been so outraged as to get it done. The TWA pilots certainly did not when they got the hose job. BTW, the end position of the USAir east pilots was don DOH, it was DOH based on LOS. Big difference, IMO, between the two--especially with the USAir group.

I blame USAPA merger policy, which is flawed beyond comprehension. Picking a pilot's date of hire, and basing his/her career expectations on that single day is just AKS-- all kinda stupid.

So then DOH for bidding schedules, vacation, travel, and just about everything else in the industry is also not fair. Why do we even have a seniority system?

Every merger is different therefore no single integration methodology is fair

The difference is that DOH is not something which can be subjective--like any other methodology which can be dreamed up. It is undeniable, unable to be fluffed in order to look better. It's right there, and unable to blindside anybody, causing rift. Nicolau even screwed up the fence,which came down before the ink was even dry on the list. The reason the fence came down? Yup, a charge led by none other than the West pilots because they didn't have the fortitude enough in the past to secure a pension--for which they blame ALPA. Oh what a tangled web we weave when arguing on the web boards. :laugh:

Of course you blame ALPA. The East is never responsible for anything. I'll bet you think it was ALPA on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in '63 too.

Just to be clear, I am not a USAir E or W pilot. I just don't choose to cast the entire blame on the East. There is plenty to go around.

Gee, I wonder whose fault that is?

Both. ALPA merger policy provides the opportunity to work it out between yourselves. If you had done so, we wouldn't be here talking about it. It's funny that if you are indeed ex-TWA, as your name suggests, you would have such an easy time defending such an egregious award after the beating you took from AA. Could it be that you are biased? If you are an E or W pilot, you cannot be unbiased. End of argument.