Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[JoeMerchant]

BoilerUP:

Thank you for reading my post and for understanding what I was trying to say – even if you don’t agree completely.







General Lee:

Congratulations for being your normal self - the self-centered snob who thinks that being employed by Delta Airlines somehow makes you God’s special gift to aviation; the guy who never misses a chance to say something derogatory about somebody else.

I have some recommendations for you General: 1) Once in a while try sticking to the subject matter instead of looking for ways to degrade those you consider to be inferior to you. It’s really tacky and adds little to the discourse. 2) Don’t talk about those things that you really know nothing about. If you’re just quiet most of the world won’t learn that you really have little of substance to say. 3) Stop trying to disparage regional pilots. Too many of them have as much or more to contribute than you do.

A) Yes, I retired from Comair some 10 years ago. B) No, I did not work there 30 years or anything close to that; I only worked there 12 years. C) Many of the finest airmen I’ve ever had the opportunity to meet were at Comair and many of them still are. D) I’m not ashamed of them or of having worked with them; I’m quite proud of it. So, your derogatory remarks about “lifers” and about CMR are of no avail whatever. Spare yourself the time and effort. E) While there I also met some people that were less than desirable just as I did in places where I worked before Comair. Nearly all of them left voluntarily for the majors or were run off by the good folks.

I know nothing about you other than what you write here and candidly I couldn’t care less. For all I know you’re a great pilot and will do well. On the other hand you could just as easily be a total dolt in the cockpit. Francis, I just don’t care.

However, based on what you write you come across to me as an arrogant, self-centered, know it all; a condition that often appears to reflect the culture of your airline. What’s more you seem to take pleasure in disparaging people that you consider to be less than you, many of whom are quite probably way above you. Get over yourself and make a contribution instead of just blowing your own horn louder and louder.

What’s more, most airline pilots that I have known from other airlines seem to share the general view that a great many Delta pilots are just like you: arrogant, self-centered blowhards. You’ve earned that reputation as a group, all over the industry and held it for years. .

I will qualify that by saying that I have indeed met some very fine people over the years who wore the Delta uniform. A lot of them were really Western pilots and a couple from old C & S, but mixed in there were also a few real Delta pilots. Most, like me, are now retired. What’s my point? We all have our share of people that just have to be rude to others. Unfortunately, your group’s culture seems to harbor more than its share. Perhaps that’s why you got to be the way you come across.

I have a suggestion: If every time you come in to a room full of ‘regional pilots” something smells – take a look at your own shoes.

I have no idea why you seem to be interested in whether or not I am what you call a “lifer”, or who I might have applied to work for at some point in time. It doesn’t seem to me that those things are of any interest to anyone, let alone relevant to the discussion. But, since you seem to want to know, I’ll tell you just enough to whet your appetite.
I was hired by Comair as a co-pilot in 1987. Before that year I didn’t even know they existed. I had already left my job as an ex-pat airline pilot and joined CMR because I missed wandering around in airplanes. I had already been an airline captain, in intercontinental service, for 17 years, in 4-engine equipment. I already had well over 20K hours in my logbook in a variety of transports and didn’t “need” to apply anywhere. I was also too old already. I just wanted to have some fun flying small airplanes again. I enjoyed every flying minute at CMR, but most of all I enjoyed and liked the fine pilots I met and worked with there. Hopefully I was able to help some of those I flew with to learn a few new things. They certainly were able to help me.

Now I don’t know what you were doing in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s but my guess is you were still in diapers or if not, you didn’t even have a license when I got my first upgrade. Now that doesn’t mean that I’m smarter than you or that I know more than you do; I’m sure you’re very bright and that most, if not all of what you know now, you learned from seasoned captains, a good training department and applying yourself. If you don’t have a command as yet, hopefully you’ll get one soon and when you do, don’t let it go to your head like your job at Delta has. In the final analysis, you’re just another pilot – like the rest of us.

The point is simple: We all put our pants on one leg at a time. The most dangerous pilots are those who believe that they are too smart to learn something from a fellow airman, no matter how many “hours” he/she doesn’t have. Our clocks always start to run from zero hours, no matter where we happen to work and we all learn from others. My advice to you is simple: the first time you fly a turn and do not learn something that you didn’t know before; hang up the hat. It means you’re dangerous!

The bottom line is the same. First Officers don’t cause accidents. Captains do; especially the one’s that know too much.

BRAVO! Surplus and welcome back....We've missed you on FI. As usual, very well said....

 

[Motown]

So we should make an ACT score of 28 or SAT of 1200 as mins to hold an ATP. These are the kind of guys who become Doc's Engineers, etc. Then nothing but serious gray matter in the cockpit, most likely cause a real shortage that would have to drive up wages.

The wages & benefits will drive the caliber of applicant, not the other way around.

If the job paid $500K/yr, the career would be attracting hundreds of thousands of applicants, a percentage of whom would have 1400+ SAT scores (to return to your question). By rejecting 98% of the applicants, one could hire only those with 1400+ scores.

If the job paid $50K/yr, the career would be attracting significantly fewer applicants, and only the ocasional one would have 1400+ SAT scores. No longer would an employer have the luxury of rejecting 98% of the applicants, and therefore the vast majority of the new hires would not have 1400+ SAT scores.

To address your theory, though... yes, if an ACT score of 28 or SAT of 1200 were the mins to hold an ATP, wages would have to go up-- not because the career would suddenly be attracting doctors and engineers, but because applicants with those types of scores would rather become doctors and engineers unless the pilot profession could match their potential incomes in those other fields. (Think opportunity costs.) If an airline wanted to attract applicants with ATP's that required scores of 28 or 1200, they would have to match the applicant's opportunity costs (i.e., match the income & lifestyle available in competing career fields).

 

[surplus1]

Hello JM and pardon the rant. I know I shouldn't let it happen but sometimes that "Little Lord Fauntleroy" from ATL just sticks in my craw.

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

 

[kf4amu]

So, which airline do you work for to attain 'financially secure with a bright career possible ahead of him'?

I work at ASA and am about to go back to work after being furloughed for 19 months and I am 'well-fed, rested, financially secure pilot with a bright career possible ahead of him'.

This is, at best, a really good part time job...like being a firefighter.

Wait are you comparing being an airline pilot to being a firefighter? There is no comparison in QOL and schedule...not to mention respect.

Pay may be slightly greater as an airline pilot, but definitely not starting out, and once you factor in the debt (both time and money) that it takes to create an airline career, the zero sum point is many years into the future.

I am an unpaid professional firefighter, and a paid professional pilot. I have first hand experience with both professions and there is no comparison.

So why did I choose flying as my paid profession? Same reason most of us did...I always wanted to be a pilot and I love flying. Unfortunately we are all too eager to suffer for our love, and management exploits it every chance they get (except Southwest).

 

[pilotyip]

So why did I choose flying as my paid profession? Same reason most of us did...I always wanted to be a pilot and I love flying. Unfortunately we are all too eager to suffer for our love, and management exploits it every chance they get (except Southwest).

Remember SWA is no longer the lost cost carrier. They recently had to purpose to their crews work rule changes to make them more productive, read more passengers moved for the same amount of money. Why would the best managed company have to do this? Management is only responding to the consumer. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. BTW As flyin guy said, “Who wants to be first to sacrifice his job for the benefit of someone else?”

 

[johnpeace]

Wait are you comparing being an airline pilot to being a firefighter? There is no comparison in QOL and schedule...not to mention respect.

Only to say that being an airline pilot is a good part-time job...like being a firefighter is a good part-time job.

I guess there really is no comparison though: benefits, job security and schedule/QOL at the fire dept. are undoubtedly FAR better than at an airline...

My only point is that the airline job sucks a lot less when I look at it as a part-time, 'supplementary' job than as a 'all my eggs in this basket' job.

Then again, I haven't ever had a really busy airline schedule...I expect I have a whole new perspective waiting for me when I go back to work.

 

[kmox29]

I understand that higher pay may make things easier for the pilot or may make the applicant pool a little more "qualified", but pay as a function of your level of safety/professionalism/airmanship makes no sense.

You are all professional pilots (even if your company treats you like crap). Every time you fly, you should be performing to the highest level of safety. You should be flying like your family is in the back of your airplane...every leg...every day.

 

[surplus1]

Anyone who consciously performs below his/her maximum capability due to his/her pay is a fool. The pilot still rides in the front and will be the first to experience the consequences of unsatisfactory performance.

 

[kf4amu]

Only to say that being an airline pilot is a good part-time job...like being a firefighter is a good part-time job.

I guess there really is no comparison though: benefits, job security and schedule/QOL at the fire dept. are undoubtedly FAR better than at an airline...

My only point is that the airline job sucks a lot less when I look at it as a part-time, 'supplementary' job than as a 'all my eggs in this basket' job.

Then again, I haven't ever had a really busy airline schedule...I expect I have a whole new perspective waiting for me when I go back to work.

I see what you mean, but I definitely don't view an airline gig as a part time job. What airline doesn't keep its pilots busy?

 

[Kalifornia]

Remember SWA is no longer the lost cost carrier. They recently had to purpose to their crews work rule changes to make them more productive, read more passengers moved for the same amount of money. Why would the best managed company have to do this? Management is only responding to the consumer. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. BTW As flyin guy said, “Who wants to be first to sacrifice his job for the benefit of someone else?”

In the words of Ronald Regan, "there you go again". You remember, maybe, you were in adult diapers back then. Ok enough with the insults, maybe...

Cookie cutter simplified economics is about is cold and undone as well cookie dough. I'd sure like you explain the opportunity costs, or in this case expenses, of the Colgan crash, and having many a pissed off and sad families demanding congress make a new law to ensure aviation safety let alone the obvious incalculable loss of life with such accident. Where does that fit into your market analysis? Sorry to say this, but something tells me you failed life economics if you're working into your 70s.

 

[Flybywire44]

Only to say that being an airline pilot is a good part-time job...like being a firefighter is a good part-time job.

I guess there really is no comparison though: benefits, job security and schedule/QOL at the fire dept. are undoubtedly FAR better than at an airline...

My only point is that the airline job sucks a lot less when I look at it as a part-time, 'supplementary' job than as a 'all my eggs in this basket' job.

Then again, I haven't ever had a really busy airline schedule...I expect I have a whole new perspective waiting for me when I go back to work.

Fire Firghters? Not in this economy.

http://www.davisvanguard.org/index....ut-does-not-order-chiang-to-pay-it&Itemid=109

 

[pilotyip]

In the words of Ronald Regan, "there you go again". You remember, maybe, you were in adult diapers back then. Ok enough with the insults, maybe...

Cookie cutter simplified economics is about is cold and undone as well cookie dough. I'd sure like you explain the opportunity costs, or in this case expenses, of the Colgan crash, and having many a pissed off and sad families demanding congress make a new law to ensure aviation safety let alone the obvious incalculable loss of life with such accident. Where does that fit into your market analysis? Sorry to say this, but something tells me you failed life economics if you're working into your 70s.

Hey! long time no insult, I thought maybe you did not care anymore. Only working cause I like to, nice to have the option. As per above who wants to be first to sacrifice for benefit of someone else. BTW Got an A on Grad Econ course.

 

[Kalifornia]

Hey! long time no insult, I thought maybe you did not care anymore. Only working cause I like to, nice to have the option. As per above who wants to be first to sacrifice for benefit of someone else. BTW Got an A on Grad Econ course.

Working just cause you like to, A on Grad Econ; you're believability is less than your deadly ethical scale and that's saying a lot.

 

[pilotyip]

Working just cause you like to, A on Grad Econ; you're believability is less than your deadly ethical scale and that's saying a lot.

Sure get fly airplanes, airshows, CFIing, own 6 cars all paid for, 5 houses two paid for, an airplane, steady retirment income. Life could not be better. All this never had a job that paid more than $100K. Can't wait to get up every day to see what new adventure is out there waitign to be experienced, life is good, how about you?

 

[johnpeace]

I see what you mean, but I definitely don't view an airline gig as a part time job. What airline doesn't keep its pilots busy?

I worked at ASA for a year before my furlough.

I was averaging 2 naps a month on reserve. I literally only drove to the airport 2x a month.

I understand it's not like that anymore.

As a lineholder, my strategy will be to give away as many trips as I can to get down to a comfortable 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule. Hoping PBS and our schedules moving into the future can support that.

 

[DoinTime]

Sure get fly airplanes, airshows, CFIing, own 6 cars all paid for, 5 houses two paid for, an airplane, steady retirment income. Life could not be better. All this never had a job that paid more than $100K. Can't wait to get up every day to see what new adventure is out there waitign to be experienced, life is good, how about you?

Considering how much time you spend dicking around with FlightInfo, I'd say your life probably sucks.

 

[livin'thesim]

When is General Lee gonna show up and eat his humble pie?

That post was masterful - it's like watching the alpha lion discipline an unruly cub - no real violence, just a nice little swat to remind the relative newbie to mind his manners.


All I can say is that it is very, very, very fortunate for the General that he works for Delta. How else could he define himself?

 

[livin'thesim]

Considering how much time you spend dicking around with FlightInfo, I'd say your life probably sucks.

Your bitter response probably just made his day.

 

[Kalifornia]

Your bitter response probably just made his day.

You're probably right, but on the other hand there's the infamous story of Tim from ALPA. You know the guy on the magazine cover who told the world he was an F-16 pilot, NY Fire Fighter, the works and the story folded.

I think Tim and PilotYip would make the best of friends. Six cars, seven houses. For anyone who hasn't received the grand master of fear, loathing, and lower expectations, here's a copy of the uninvited to my Private Message in the past among other messages:

Total Time: 12001

Not to bore you but,
Not to bore you with info overload, but this is why I would keep this private. I have been blasted as being a looser because I work in management at YIP in the on-demand cargo business. I am management by default and unemployment at age 53. I like where I am and what I do, and the positive changes I have made at my airline. But since I am not a major pilot, I am not a real pilot. There is bias on this board that only pilots with college degrees, working for a union carrier making $200K per year are real pilots. I know many pilots who I consider successful, who meet none of those requirements. I have a BS Mich. State Univ. 66, MA Cent Mich. U 82, retired Navy Captain, Squadron CO. I turned 65 last year. When I left the Navy in 1977, I was 33 and had about 2,500 hours, 700 of which came in 6 months flying around Vietnam. Most of my flight time is multi engine turbine PIC in a 100K + P-3, an ATP with an L-188 type. So after being in the Navy 11 years, I average less than 250 hr per year, typical military flt time. The majors told me my age and hours were out of ratio, back then being over 30 and getting a major interview was difficult. So I went to the largest 121 supplemental in the country an ALPA carrier Transamerica DC-8's, DC-10's B-747's and two years later they are selling airplanes and I am going backward in seniority was that beyond my control? Did it have anything to do with my skill or desire? I take a job as a pilot with Fortune 500 auto parts makers with a history of no lay offs, 3 years later they lay off half their pilots. The early 80's were a bad time for getting aviation jobs. So I start my own business, now hiring starts again I am 42, who gets hired, the 35 year-old guys in reserve P-3 unit, less flight time. By the time my age is again attractive, I have been promoted out of the Naval Reserve flying and the airlines tell me I am not current in big airplanes. So I go to a work for a commuter, it goes out of business. Now it is 1991, no job again, is that in my control. So I go to another Corp job, in North Carolina, in 1996 they sell their airplane. In the fall of 1996, I get on with Zantop at Willow Run as an L-188 Captain; they have been in business forever. It is a place I can plan on retiring from. 6 months later they go out of business to get rid of the Teamster’s Union. I get hired by USA Jet as ground school instructor, become Director of Training and finally DA-20 Standards. I have had 11 jobs, 7 flying and 4 non-flying. I must be a decent pilot, I have had no trouble in anything I checked out in, from the and the Navy does not make me squadron check airman if I don't have at least average Navy flying skills. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984. They hired P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I am working for some non-sked at YIP. Were those circumstances beyond my control, I don't know? I moved on. I have many my friends from the Navy who also never made it. Eastern, Pam Am, Braniff, etc. Those who get the $100 K retirement are lucky. I have made a great number of friends in this business and we still stay in touch. It was never about lifestyle; it was about being there in flight. I have never made "big money"; in fact I have never made good regional Capt.'s pay as a pilot. So I think $100K/yr is a good salary. Yea I would have liked to make more, but no complaints, I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA level are very fortunate to be where they are, and there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.


This guy is no doubt spending his life now trying to take down the profession, so let me ask you, who is bitter? What are his true motives?

 

[pilotyip]

google it,

You're probably right, but on the other hand there's the infamous story of Tim from ALPA. You know the guy on the magazine cover who told the world he was an F-16 pilot, NY Fire Fighter, the works and the story folded.

I think Tim and PilotYip would make the best of friends. Six cars, seven houses. For anyone who hasn't received the grand master of fear, loathing, and lower expectations, here's a copy of the uninvited to my Private Message in the past among other messages:

Total Time: 12001

Not to bore you but,
Not to bore you with info overload, but this is why I would keep this private. I have been blasted as being a looser because I work in management at YIP in the on-demand cargo business. I am management by default and unemployment at age 53. I like where I am and what I do, and the positive changes I have made at my airline. But since I am not a major pilot, I am not a real pilot. There is bias on this board that only pilots with college degrees, working for a union carrier making $200K per year are real pilots. I know many pilots who I consider successful, who meet none of those requirements. I have a BS Mich. State Univ. 66, MA Cent Mich. U 82, retired Navy Captain, Squadron CO. I turned 65 last year. When I left the Navy in 1977, I was 33 and had about 2,500 hours, 700 of which came in 6 months flying around Vietnam. Most of my flight time is multi engine turbine PIC in a 100K + P-3, an ATP with an L-188 type. So after being in the Navy 11 years, I average less than 250 hr per year, typical military flt time. The majors told me my age and hours were out of ratio, back then being over 30 and getting a major interview was difficult. So I went to the largest 121 supplemental in the country an ALPA carrier Transamerica DC-8's, DC-10's B-747's and two years later they are selling airplanes and I am going backward in seniority was that beyond my control? Did it have anything to do with my skill or desire? I take a job as a pilot with Fortune 500 auto parts makers with a history of no lay offs, 3 years later they lay off half their pilots. The early 80's were a bad time for getting aviation jobs. So I start my own business, now hiring starts again I am 42, who gets hired, the 35 year-old guys in reserve P-3 unit, less flight time. By the time my age is again attractive, I have been promoted out of the Naval Reserve flying and the airlines tell me I am not current in big airplanes. So I go to a work for a commuter, it goes out of business. Now it is 1991, no job again, is that in my control. So I go to another Corp job, in North Carolina, in 1996 they sell their airplane. In the fall of 1996, I get on with Zantop at Willow Run as an L-188 Captain; they have been in business forever. It is a place I can plan on retiring from. 6 months later they go out of business to get rid of the Teamster’s Union. I get hired by USA Jet as ground school instructor, become Director of Training and finally DA-20 Standards. I have had 11 jobs, 7 flying and 4 non-flying. I must be a decent pilot, I have had no trouble in anything I checked out in, from the and the Navy does not make me squadron check airman if I don't have at least average Navy flying skills. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984. They hired P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I am working for some non-sked at YIP. Were those circumstances beyond my control, I don't know? I moved on. I have many my friends from the Navy who also never made it. Eastern, Pam Am, Braniff, etc. Those who get the $100 K retirement are lucky. I have made a great number of friends in this business and we still stay in touch. It was never about lifestyle; it was about being there in flight. I have never made "big money"; in fact I have never made good regional Capt.'s pay as a pilot. So I think $100K/yr is a good salary. Yea I would have liked to make more, but no complaints, I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA level are very fortunate to be where they are, and there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.


This guy is no doubt spending his life now trying to take down the profession, so let me ask you, who is bitter? What are his true motives?

Wow you saved it, I must be special, This has been sent to around 300-400 FI'ers, so it is not big news to many. Come to think of it you are about the only one who got weird about it. I guess it has to do with me liking to fly, hang around airports, teach people to fly, never turn down a flight in a war bird. I guess that doesn’t fit into your definition of the profession. I do not pretend to hide behind a screen name, plus I now have over 13,000 hours.