NJI Questions

[johnsonrod]

First, I want to wish everyone at Netjets (NJA and NJI) luck in smoothing out the integration. Part of me feels for the NJI pilots (primarily the FOs) who were expecting to fly G-Whizzes for the rest of their careers when they worked hard to qualify and signed on. On the other hand, the total operation will be a lot more efficient with the two groups integrated. I know a few NJA pilots (including one who was furloughed) but I don't know anyone on the NJI side of the fence.

Can someone answer a few questions I have regarding the new combined operation and how that impacts the pilots:

1. Is the entire NJA/NJI group now being viewed from a date-of-hire perspective? Are NJI Gulfstream Capts grandfathered into their seats?

2. Within the combined group, how will NJI Gulfstream FOs be impacted? Will they now need to bid for the left seat and wait in line just like everyone else or will they get a fast-track to the Gulfstream Capt slot? Have NJI FOs been displaced to NJA fleet aircraft?

3. Have the Gulfstreams now been opened up for bidding based on seniority as new aircraft arrive? Are all pilots basically able to bid any aircraft fleet based on seniority?

4. Just curious, what is the current mix of older GIV/GVs to newer G450/550s? Are the older GIVs/GVs being replaced by newer Gulfstreams or are newer Gulfstreams incremental to the fleet? I realize the imploded economy has probably led to slower or cancelled orders.

5. How many more G450s/550s on order going forward? Any orders for the 650 version yet?

Good luck to all involved. Incidently, I had my application in with NJA before the economic meltdown but never got the call... It's a great company and I hope that furloughees eventually return and some hiring will take place in the next 3-5 years...

 

[gutshotdraw]

First, I want to wish everyone at Netjets (NJA and NJI) luck in smoothing out the integration. Part of me feels for the NJI pilots (primarily the FOs) who were expecting to fly G-Whizzes for the rest of their careers when they worked hard to qualify and signed on. On the other hand, the total operation will be a lot more efficient with the two groups integrated. I know a few NJA pilots (including one who was furloughed) but I don't know anyone on the NJI side of the fence.

Can someone answer a few questions I have regarding the new combined operation and how that impacts the pilots:

1. Is the entire NJA/NJI group now being viewed from a date-of-hire perspective? Are NJI Gulfstream Capts grandfathered into their seats?

VSL (date of hire) is used for most everything (couple of exceptions until November 21). There will be no system flush so everybody stays where they presently sit.

2. Within the combined group, how will NJI Gulfstream FOs be impacted? Will they now need to bid for the left seat and wait in line just like everyone else or will they get a fast-track to the Gulfstream Capt slot? Have NJI FOs been displaced to NJA fleet aircraft?

No displacements yet. Any NJI pilot currently a Gulfstream First Officer will not see a left seat until their VSL number will hold a PIC bid, in a small aircraft fleet in 2-3 years or more.

3. Have the Gulfstreams now been opened up for bidding based on seniority as new aircraft arrive? Are all pilots basically able to bid any aircraft fleet based on seniority?

The LOA still requires an NJA pilot bidding the Gulfstream fleet to complete a seat lock in the IV prior to being eligible for the V/550/450. Seat lock is presently 3 years for SIC and 4 years for PIC. After integration, that will change to a 2 year equipment lock (time in the IV) and a 5 year Gulfstream program lock. The first 4 NJA pilots to complete their lock begin the GV/550/450 school tomorrow.

4. Just curious, what is the current mix of older GIV/GVs to newer G450/550s? Are the older GIVs/GVs being replaced by newer Gulfstreams or are newer Gulfstreams incremental to the fleet? I realize the imploded economy has probably led to slower or cancelled orders.

The fleet is approximately 50% IV's and 50% V/550/450. G-IV's are for sale and will be slowly drawn down over the next several years.

5. How many more G450s/550s on order going forward? Any orders for the 650 version yet?

There are orders for some 450's and 550's but most deliveries have been postponed for a while which is fine with Gulfstream because they are selling the crap out of the airplanes overseas. There are no plans to order the 650 that we have heard of but that could change in 4-5 years if the economy ever comes back.

Good luck to all involved. Incidently, I had my application in with NJA before the economic meltdown but never got the call... It's a great company and I hope that furloughees eventually return and some hiring will take place in the next 3-5 years...

Consolidation of the Okatie NOC to CMH continues and should be complete by October. I don't expect the single certificate to be complete before the end of the year.

 

[cldsfr79]

1. Is the entire NJA/NJI group now being viewed from a date-of-hire perspective? Are NJI Gulfstream Capts grandfathered into their seats?

2. Within the combined group, how will NJI Gulfstream FOs be impacted? Will they now need to bid for the left seat and wait in line just like everyone else or will they get a fast-track to the Gulfstream Capt slot? Have NJI FOs been displaced to NJA fleet aircraft?

Not to fan any flames but.....

I here some grumblings coming from the NJI side about joining up with NJA. Some guys not wanting to join a union, some guys not happy because they wanted to upgrade in their Gulfstream and now they might upgrade in an Ultra.

Now the flame: I think it's pretty lucky, fortunate and kind that a non-union group of pilots were given date of hire in an integration and that their pilot's interests were partially represented by a union that they don't pay for. I understand that the reason that this was done was to prevent infighting with a new group of pilots and to make things "fair". I just don't want to hear any grumbling. There are hundreds of great NJA-union-paying guys that got dumped in the furlough while non-union guys were protected and were given "virtual seniority". No grumbling please from NJI guys who have their jobs, GV captains that are junior to a chunk of NJA FOs and NJI FOs who will be getting paid more and holding their GV/GIV while NJA FOs hold smaller aircraft with less pay.

Ok, let's here it. My "shields are up".

 

[av8trinabarrel]

:bomb:

 

[Jack Campbell]

.....

 

[Grizz]

Now the flame: I think it's pretty lucky, fortunate and kind that a non-union group of pilots were given date of hire in an integration and that their pilot's interests were partially represented by a union that they don't pay for.

NJA pilots were ready to petition the NMB to declare NJA and NJI a single-transportation system. What that basically means is that NJA pilots felt that if it were not for the interference of management, there would always have only been one pilot group represented at the time by the IBT.

It would be impossible to attempt to make that argument with the NMB and do anything but date of hire integration.

 

[glasspilot]

Serious question,

Back when both NJA and NJI were hiring were they both getting the same experience pilots? It was sort of my understanding that it was much harder with higher mins to get on with NJI. If that's true then wouldn't it make sense for the G4 FO to be a little upset about flying an Ultra?

Or it could be that I'm way off base here. It's happened before. I just seem to recall NJAs mins a lot lower.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Most of the guys around my hire date, including myself, all had more than enough to meet the minimums at NJI. That being said, there were quite a few high time guys hired at NJI as well. For the folks on the street and the bottom of the current list, it was ridiculously competitive to get on at both NJI and NJA.


When it comes time to upgrade in 2030, I could give a crap what I'm flying. Big shiney jet syndrome does nothing for me. Of course, that might change depending on the time of year and no APU.

 

[CA1900]

Back when both NJA and NJI were hiring were they both getting the same experience pilots? It was sort of my understanding that it was much harder with higher mins to get on with NJI.

Higher published minimums, yes. But the actual candidates walking through the doors of the NJA interview exceeded the minimums for either company, so that really isn't an issue.

 

[172driver]

You have to wonder if the integration would have taken place under Sokol regardless of pilot input from either side? Definitely kills a lot of redundancy and streamlines the operation. If this is the case (and we'll never know), the NJI pilots got a very sweet deal.

 

[RJ Bum]

the NJI pilots got a very sweet deal.

Yes they did, too bad a lot of them dont realize it. As a dues paying member on the street, I'm glad that I'm not in the crew lounge listening to NJI guys bitching. I'm not sure how I would react.

It's amazing that they complain about "having" to join the union in the same sentence of talking about how their day went. Dont they realize NJI was formed as a union busting tactic, and by getting hired there they were part of that tactic? (I'm refering to the earlier hires) Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yes they did, too bad a lot of them dont realize it. As a dues paying member on the street, I'm glad that I'm not in the crew lounge listening to NJI guys bitching. I'm not sure how I would react.

It's amazing that they complain about "having" to join the union in the same sentence of talking about how their day went. Dont they realize NJI was formed as a union busting tactic, and by getting hired there they were part of that tactic? (I'm refering to the earlier hires) Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

Which only proves you don't know the history of Gulfstream Shares/Executive Jet International/Netjets International.

Let me explain this again. Gulfstream REFUSED to front the money and the airplanes to RTS in 1995 unless they were flown by typed, experienced, and non-union crews. The customers wanted Gulfstreams and the profit per airframe was potentially WAY higher so RTS agreed to create a separate division. It was NEVER about whipsawing the pilot groups. We can argue about the rest and whether this is a good or bad deal but it was NOT about busting the union.

 

[jtf]

It might not have been a union busting tool when started, but it was a threat to the union that was identified and stopped by the union. It could have been folded into NJA long ago without Gulfstream or whoever was trying to pull the strings doing anything to stop it if RS wanted to do so. He wanted more leverage in negotiations and that is what he had. I feel bad for the pilots that hired on expecting to be G captains, but that is all part of the pilot game/ profession. I would feel more sorry if I was furloughed and all new growth was going to NJI. Now I don't have to worry about the second part, but there is no pilot job you don't have to worry about getting furloughed from.

 

[hunkerdown]

Not to fan any flames but.....

I here some grumblings coming from the NJI side about joining up with NJA. Some guys not wanting to join a union, some guys not happy because they wanted to upgrade in their Gulfstream and now they might upgrade in an Ultra.

Now the flame: I think it's pretty lucky, fortunate and kind that a non-union group of pilots were given date of hire in an integration and that their pilot's interests were partially represented by a union that they don't pay for. I understand that the reason that this was done was to prevent infighting with a new group of pilots and to make things "fair". I just don't want to hear any grumbling. There are hundreds of great NJA-union-paying guys that got dumped in the furlough while non-union guys were protected and were given "virtual seniority". No grumbling please from NJI guys who have their jobs, GV captains that are junior to a chunk of NJA FOs and NJI FOs who will be getting paid more and holding their GV/GIV while NJA FOs hold smaller aircraft with less pay.

Ok, let's here it. My "shields are up".

NJI pilots are protected by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment.... The VSL date of hire integration has not been "given" to them. It's the law...plain and simple.

 

[gutshotdraw]

NJI pilots are protected by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment.... The VSL date of hire integration has not been "given" to them. It's the law...plain and simple.

McCaskill-Bond wouldn't necessarily have given us date of hire because it looks at a number of factors but it would prevent the kind of BS staple job that TWA got (which more than a few NJA guys would have preferred in this case). But I see your point.

The argument had always been "We're a single carrier. We all work for the same company. We all fly the same people." Therefore, I got hired by the "same company" 11 years ago and my seniority should be based on that date. To argue anything else would be hypocritical. Fortunately, the NJASAP leadership understood that.

Ironic though, isn't it, that the NMB ruled three months ago that we WERE NOT a single carrier for the purpose of collective bargaining when the F/A's petitioned for a ruling. Could have made life even more, shall we say, interesting? Moot point now with the move to eliminate the NJI certificate (which was the object of the exercise -- political, not financial considerations).



Sadly, by the way, only 64 of the 148 NJI flight attendants voted for AFA representation and will now be thrown under Jimmy Hoffa Jr.'s bus....

 

[pilot772]

NJI pilots are protected by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment.... The VSL date of hire integration has not been "given" to them. It's the law...plain and simple.

I haven't researched McCaskill-Bond but it has come up in some threads with rumors of JetBlue merging. I believe it states that both merging parties have to be represented by a union. In other words Non-union NJI would not be protected by this legislation.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I think it's pretty lucky, fortunate and kind...

That is your perspective.

POW's in Vietnam felt lucky to get a bowl of rice once a month with no fecal material in it too.

I've said before, you wanted an arranged marriage, you got one. Hope you like your new bride...

 

[Abbey]

The NJI pilots were taken care of. Those that would not be around after the furlough were all upgraded, if one desired. Many of which are years away in seniority from holding a Beechjet Captain position. Nice.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Which only proves you don't know the history of Gulfstream Shares/Executive Jet International/Netjets International.

Let me explain this again. Gulfstream REFUSED to front the money and the airplanes to RTS in 1995 unless they were flown by typed, experienced, and non-union crews. The customers wanted Gulfstreams and the profit per airframe was potentially WAY higher so RTS agreed to create a separate division. It was NEVER about whipsawing the pilot groups. We can argue about the rest and whether this is a good or bad deal but it was NOT about busting the union.

Gut,

I have long heard the story as you recant it here but...

I've never heard of a aircraft sales deal in the history of aircraft sales deals that let Unions get in the aircraft builder making a sale.

Money always trumps principle.

Always stunk like labor busting to me. JMHO, but I choose never to simply believe the story laid out by someone else as gospel...

We are together now... that's the important thing.

 

[jppt2000]

That is your perspective.

POW's in Vietnam felt lucky to get a bowl of rice once a month with no fecal material in it too.

I've said before, you wanted an arranged marriage, you got one. Hope you like your new bride...

Hope you like the groomimp:.
It's been said many times in the past, the sign of a good merger is when everyone on both sides feels equally screwed.

I know it'll be tough to do, but let's all make the best of this.