How much would a Falcon 7X First officer pay be

[BoilerUP]

I am NOT making a 121 vs 91 argument. I'm just refuting the contention that regional pilots are unsafe and inexperienced. It's simply not the case.

...which anybody who has ever flown for a regional airline knows.

 

[NCherches]

Do you realize that a junior CA at Comair or Eagle has at least 10,000 hours in their logbook? Most have significantly more than that and when I say junior I'm talking about guys with 10+ years with the company. I would guess that most (meaning at least 51%) of the CAs at Comair have upwards of 15,000 TT. I personally know dozens of FOs at Comair that have at least 8000 TT and aren't senior enough to hold CA. Even at the places with supposedly quick upgrades like Republic the junior CAs have at least 5000 hours and usually a lot more...

This is rare in the Regional's... VERY RARE!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Part 121 has to train to the lowest common denominator. Bad 121 pilots live by seniority, bad 91 pilots get fired.

What an inaccurate statement.

If 121 people are trained to the lowest common denominator then that denominator is a bigger number than I've seen elsewhere.

Bad 121 pilots bust the ride and are gone. Bad 91 pilots squeak by because they can't fail the rides. I know more than a few 91 guys who couldn't pass a checkride at the worst "bottom feeder" 121 Regional, yet they keep passing at FSI because their employer is paying big bucks to train them. Won't work at 121 cuz they'll just pink you and stick another person in there (and probably for less money).

I found it a far easier transition from 121 to 135 to 91 than I would have the other way around. 121 training prepared me far better for 91 than 91 would have prepped me for 121. The techniques I learned in 121 made 135 and 91 a breeze. Landing a plane is landing a plane, whether you do it at the same airport five times a day or five different ones you've never seen before...

 

[LegacyDriver]

...which anybody who has ever flown for a regional airline knows.

And which apparently (as judged by this thread) most people who haven't flown for a regional do NOT.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

What an inaccurate statement.

If 121 people are trained to the lowest common denominator then that denominator is a bigger number than I've seen elsewhere.

Bad 121 pilots bust the ride and are gone. Bad 91 pilots squeak by because they can't fail the rides. I know more than a few 91 guys who couldn't pass a checkride at the worst "bottom feeder" 121 Regional, yet they keep passing at FSI because their employer is paying big bucks to train them. Won't work at 121 cuz they'll just pink you and stick another person in there (and probably for less money).

I found it a far easier transition from 121 to 135 to 91 than I would have the other way around. 121 training prepared me far better for 91 than 91 would have prepped me for 121. The techniques I learned in 121 made 135 and 91 a breeze. Landing a plane is landing a plane, whether you do it at the same airport five times a day or five different ones you've never seen before...

The fact that people think any training is difficult is kinda concerning....having been through 91,135 and 121 I can say they were all pretty straightforward.

The 121 school I went to had a bunch of CFI's/freight pilots who were worried to death and thought they had to lock themselves down for 60 days and study to fly an ATR or an RJ. Maybe they had to...whatever works for ya. They kept talking about "drinking from a firehose"..etc...seemed like a lot of BS pilot talk to me. It really was not too difficult.

FSI/CAE etc may be a slower, more casual pace, but the level of pilot these is often a bit more experienced than at a regional new-hire groundschool? After getting a few type ratings, a new one just isn't much of a challenge...more mind numbing than anything else? Most 3-4 week corporate initials I have been through were about 2 weeks overdone, and poorly presented.

Comparisons can go on all day - compare Gulfstream airlines to Delta airlines? compare an oddball 91 dept run by hicks to a standardized well run dept? etc etc it can go on all day....follow the money...91,135,121, whatever..in general, low pay attracts low talent.

Either way, landing a plane in a little wind or completing a pilot ground school just aren't lofty accomplishments in life.

 

[LegacyDriver]

The fact that people think any training is difficult is kinda concerning....having been through 91,135 and 121 I can say they were all pretty straightforward.

You're an idiot. I love you, but you are so f'ing stupid here.

In 121 we got a 60 min warmup (after a 4 hour deadhead with min rest) and had to fly to ATP standards with PASS/FAIL criteria. You messed up the ENTRY to a steep turn and you were pinked. DONE. Retrain. You don't pass, you're fired.

Part 135 and 91 were three/five sim sessions (91 was at least five, 135 was at most three) THEN a ride and if you bust a maneuver you retrain *THEN* try again, continue. "Train to proficiency."

You are in a dream world if you think that these are the same things. They're not. When I upgraded to Captain half the people in my class busted. Half of those didn't even requal as F/Os. In Part 91 one of the WORST pilots I have ever flown with in my life is now a Falcon 7X Captain. As*hole can't find his own as*hole with both hands.

There is no comparison.

SI/CAE etc may be a slower, more casual pace, but the level of pilot these is often a bit more experienced than at a regional new-hire groundschool?

And damned sure should fly like he is. But often they don't. A Regional *CAPTAIN* has to be an ATP at the drop of a hat. NO "casual" pace. Sink or swim b*tch.

 

[DC3Flyer]

You're an idiot. I love you, but you are so f'ing stupid here.

In 121 we got a 60 min warmup (after a 4 hour deadhead with min rest) and had to fly to ATP standards with PASS/FAIL criteria. You messed up the ENTRY to a steep turn and you were pinked. DONE. Retrain. You don't pass, you're fired.

Part 135 and 91 were three/five sim sessions (91 was at least five, 135 was at most three) THEN a ride and if you bust a maneuver you retrain *THEN* try again, continue. "Train to proficiency."

You are in a dream world if you think that these are the same things. They're not. When I upgraded to Captain half the people in my class busted. Half of those didn't even requal as F/Os. In Part 91 one of the WORST pilots I have ever flown with in my life is now a Falcon 7X Captain. As*hole can't find his own as*hole with both hands.

There is no comparison.



And damned sure should fly like he is. But often they don't. A Regional *CAPTAIN* has to be an ATP at the drop of a hat. NO "casual" pace. Sink or swim b*tch.

You're missing the point here man....once somebody has a little experience in any type of aircraft...a checkride is basically a checkride. A steep turn is a steep turn no matter if your 121 or 91. There are only so many different things that an examiner can do to you on a ride...it's not like you're landing on the moon for the first time. Relax a little dude and take the chip off your shoulder...damn.

 

[BoilerUP]

I still maintain its not difficult to hop into a simulator and fly to ATP standards in an airplane you're typed on or otherwise familiar with.

The big difference between a 121/135 checkride and a 91 checkride is most often the air carrier checkride is jeopardy, while the 91 check is not. Because of this, some 91 pilots don't prepare as well as they would if their jobs were on the line.

Another big difference is the attitude of those doing the checking - everybody who has ever worked for a 121 carrier has horror stories about that guy in the training department whose ego required them to constantly show how much more they knew about the plane than those being checked, and/or was known for busting people for the grayest of discretionary reasons. Part 91 pilots whose companies are paying big bucks to be trained and checked aren't going to tolerate a smartass, know-it-all TCE like airline guys have to with their company check airmen...but those same part 91 pilots will respect the TCE who is professional but thorough, tough but fair.

There is a reason why AQP and its "train to proficiency" methodology is gaining traction in the 121 world...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"deadhead and pinked after a steep turn"...
"man, half the class busted"...
"requal as F/O's".....

....jesus give it a rest, Captain. I love you too, Top Gun, but thats just stupid talk. lol. Like the guy above said, its not like you are landing on the moon here.

Thinking ATP standards are setting the bar high is pretty funny. Not a single person I have ever been through FSI/CAE with flew below those standards. Not one ever needed a retest, an extra sim session etc, etc...not one in the 8 type ratings and 30+ recurrents I have been through. Some were military, some airline, some civilian...didn't matter. Some were a bit sharper than others, etc..but all get/got the job done...Maybe you just worked with morons? (yes I have met a few of them) I have also been to a 121 regional airline school, and it was no harder than FSI or CAE. You seem to struggle a lot LD, maybe its simply not the economy, the airplane, the crosswind, the idiots you work with, etc etc etc???

Put down the drinks, boozing and posting on pilot message boards dosen't usually have a good outcome......You are once again starting to sound like a high school football player talking about the big game 20yrs ago.

"when I flew the Legacy"..(crying in your beer)

 

[LegacyDriver]

You're missing the point here man....once somebody has a little experience in any type of aircraft...a checkride is basically a checkride. A steep turn is a steep turn no matter if your 121 or 91. There are only so many different things that an examiner can do to you on a ride...it's not like you're landing on the moon for the first time. Relax a little dude and take the chip off your shoulder...damn.

Dream world brother.

Slats and Lubbock wouldn't make it five minutes into a 121 F/O ride...

I've seen it.

Lubbock for example..................took more than 1:15 of *MY* time during our Sim 1 Recurrent and then called the CP and asked for more time because, "LD didn't finish."

Well no sh*t I didn't finish. I only had :45 to do 2 : 00 of sim stuff and I still got 90 pct done any way.

That sh*t doesn't fly in 121. You get :60 each and if you f*ck it you're done.

The Safety Officer (a USAF F-4 Wild Weasel and C-5 driver with combat time in the Storm) was begging me to write the guy up....because after 22 years in the same company he can't pass a recurrent without the sim instructor helping him.

Sorry, bro. "Only in 91."

 

[LegacyDriver]

"deadhead and pinked after a steep turn"...
"man, half the class busted"...
"requal as F/O's".....

....jesus give it a rest, Captain. I love you too, Top Gun, but thats just stupid talk. lol. LIke the guy above said, its not like you are landing on the moon here.

That's what I thought in my initial F/O 121 ride when a guy with WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more time and about five types....busted in 20 mins. The Check Airman had a hardon for the guy and BUSTED him on his steep turn entry. Me? Stupid idiot redneck nobody pilot....I was hamburger after 3 : 20 in the box, having *NEVER* flown a jet before. It was brutal.

Lubbock, Slats, and Flameout wouldn't have made it. Just sayin'.

Thinking ATP standards are setting the bar high is pretty funny. Not a single person I have ever been through FSI/CAE with flew below those standards. Not one ever needed a retest, an extra sim session etc, etc...not one in the 8 type ratings and 30+ recurrents I have been through. Some were military, some airline, some civilian...didn't matter. Some were a bit sharper than others, etc..but all get/got the job done...Maybe you just worked with morons?

Apparently I did. One runs a furniture store in NM. He was an idiot when I worked 135 with him. The others were 91 at the Deathstar and they are still there because nobody has the b*lls to tell them they're INCOMPETENT. At Deathstar only "strong F/Os" were paired with Slats and Lubbock. Yep. Newhire F/Os like me, CRJ, and Rum were paired with those guys so they wouldn't kill themselves.

I'm telling you, those guys wouldn't have made it as a 121 F/O. Can't even pass a 91 ride without a *LOT* of help???????????????????????

Please.

Laugh at me all you want. When you catch fire I will talk you through the whole damned thing with a calm voice and I will be nine miles ahead of you *AND* the plane.

That's my job as the NFP *OR* the FP. And I learned that in 121. Not 91.

Put down the drinks, boozing and posting on pilot message boards dosen't usually have a good outcome......You are once again starting to sound like a high school football player talking about the big game 20yrs ago.

"when I flew the Legacy"..(crying in your beer)

Say it to my face, a-hole. You're the last guy to talk about putting down drinks. You talk a lot of smack and pretend to be a friend. Then you make comments like that????


Whatever.

I would never screw you over, but your post above says to me you won't return the favor.

Kiss my ass.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

That's what I thought in my initial F/O 121 ride when a guy with WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more time and about five types....busted in 20 mins. The Check Airman had a hardon for the guy and BUSTED him on his steep turn entry. Me? Stupid idiot redneck nobody pilot....I was hamburger after 3 : 20 in the box, having *NEVER* flown a jet before. It was brutal.

Lubbock, Slats, and Flameout wouldn't have made it. Just sayin'.




Apparently I did. One runs a furniture store in NM. He was an idiot when I worked 135 with him. The others were 91 at the Deathstar and they are still there because nobody has the b*lls to tell them they're INCOMPETENT. At Deathstar only "strong F/Os" were paired with Slats and Lubbock. Yep. Newhire F/Os like me, CRJ, and Rum were paired with those guys so they wouldn't kill themselves.

I'm telling you, those guys wouldn't have made it as a 121 F/O. Can't even pass a 91 ride without a *LOT* of help???????????????????????

Please.

Laugh at me all you want. When you catch fire I will talk you through the whole damned thing with a calm voice and I will be nine miles ahead of you *AND* the plane.

That's my job as the NFP *OR* the FP. And I learned that in 121. Not 91.






Say it to my face, a-hole. You're the last guy to talk about putting down drinks. You talk a lot of smack and pretend to be a friend. Then you make comments like that????


Whatever.

I would never screw you over, but your post above says to me you won't return the favor.

Kiss my ass.

This is a classic!

I will certainly call you when I catch on fire. Thank You. We usually dont train for fires in 91, I think that must be a 121 thing.

Despite what sadly seems too common in this business....I'd never screw ANYONE over LD, its just not my nature...(as many here who know me would agree) but c'mon, I never even met you, never mind considered you a friend.

My offer still stands to buy beers when you get up my way on your solo x-countrys....

You are de-railing fast my man!!......let it go...calm blue ocean LD, calm blue ocean.





PS - sorry but I have no idea who Lubbock, Slats, and Flameout are....

 

[LegacyDriver]

This is a classic!

I will certainly call you when I catch on fire. Thank You. We usually dont train for fires in 91, I think that must be a 121 thing.

Well when you call me--depress, fire, whatever...you will live, because I *KNOW* what I'm doing in both seats. I memorize the checklists backwards and forwards so I know what they say when I can't read them with the smoke. Just sayin'.

Despite what sadly seems too common in this business....I'd never screw ANYONE over LD, its just not my nature...(as many here who know me would agree) but c'mon, I never even met you, never mind considered you a friend.

My offer still stands to buy beers when you get up my way on your solo x-countrys....

To be graced with the presence of a stud like me you better f'ing buy the beers you wanker.



Fuq me all ya' want. I still got yer back. I'm loyal like that.

PS - I have no idea who Lubbock, Slats, and Flameout are....

[/quote]

I won't tell you either. They would scare you to death.

Idiots.

The Death Star loves Falcons because Flameout bombed both engines on a two-holer with the CEO in the back.

Yep.

I know. Pure 91. Totally "professional."

I hate my ex-wife and wouldn't let him fly her.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well when you call me--depress, fire, whatever...you will live, because I *KNOW* what I'm doing in both seats. I memorize the checklists backwards and forwards so I know what they say when I can't read them with the smoke. Just sayin'.

Be careful my man, some people have done some pretty stupid moves by second guessing and/or ignoring checklists in these fancy modern aeroplanes....

I do agree, FIRE is about the only thing that concerns me to the point where I always have a solid game plan for the plane Im flying, and review it frequently. I think most pilots do the same?

Flameout huh?....How in the world does one blow up 2 engines?

 

[Quimby]

This is rare in the Regional's... VERY RARE!

Are you really this clueless?

 

[LegacyDriver]

Be careful my man, some people have done some pretty stupid moves by second guessing and/or ignoring checklists in these fancy modern aeroplanes....

I do agree, FIRE is about the only thing that concerns me to the point where I always have a solid game plan for the plane Im flying, and review it frequently. I think most pilots do the same?

I'm not saying I run a non-memory QRH from memory, I'm just saying that I can if I *have* to (incapacitated pilot, smoke in the cockpit, etc.).

Flameout huh?....How in the world does one blow up 2 engines?

I don't remember the details but it was pilot error, hence the subsequent love affair with three-holers.

 

[NCherches]

Are you really this clueless?

Apparently I am clueless... I had no idea most Regional Captains have 10,000 hours and didn't know there FO's had 5,000+ Good to know we are in safe hands

 

[rumrnr78]

Apparently I am clueless... I had no idea most Regional Captains have 10,000 hours and didn't know there FO's had 5,000+ Good to know we are in safe hands

I bet Comair has those stats. I flew with at least 10 great captains (who I credit with helping me shape my role as a captain) that simply missed the hiring cycle. A mix of civilian and military backgrounds.

I would be willing to bet that Skywest will be top heavy in 5 years. Regionals hate senior pilots (even though they have 15+ year rates) so it will be interesting to sit back and watch.

Cheers- Rum

 

[AA717driver]

G200--I agree with you on not sweating training once you have a certain amount of experience. But, I also agree with Legacy (did I just say that? ?) but he doesn't explain it very well.

In a lot of regionals and some large American Airlines, the training department is full of management suckups/wannabes. The Chicken$h!t factor is through the roof. (Now, at certain large American Airlines, that is changing--but the intimidation factor is STILL there. Training isn't a learning experience, it's a CHECKING experience with way too much "stump the dummy" attitude.) There are WAAAAY too many guys out there who apparently have 'something to prove' and do so by trying to prove how much they know that you don't know.

In most 121 operations, the training department becomes an empire unto itself and is almost completely isolated. Often, it's filled with people who just don't want to fly (and can't weasel their way into an ALPA job... ). But too many of the pilots in the training department see that as the HOV lane to management. (And those are the LAST people you want in management.)

Needless to say, if your goal is career advancement, your focus WON'T be on providing a quality experience for the "customer".

I will say that my experiences at FSI SAV were as demanding and professional as the best training I experienced in 121 (Air Wisconsin 1987/88 and TWA after 1992 or so). But that's the extent of my non-airline training.

TC

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I hear ya TC....didn't take me long to realize that 121 was not for me, nor would a suckup 91 department.......therefore I'm aware that my aviation career is rather limited at this point, and Im fine with that........:laugh:

Just have low tolerance for the retarded mentality that passing ground school and flying airplanes are huge accomplishments reserved for the elite.

I guess I have been lucky to fly with pretty even people across the board, through CFI/charter/airline/corp etc I have never even come close to the stories of incompetent people that others have here....but of course I wont hire/fly with an RJ/Embrear pilot...a rather unstable bunch.