Spirit T/A Details?

[samballs]

Right here. This is a decision for the Spirit pilots to make, so I didn't want to jump in too much. But since you asked, I think the SPA MEC and NC did a great job and achieved significant improvements for their pilots. Is it an Alaska or Hawaiian TA? Of course not. Spirit is a niche carrier with a few dozen airplanes. You can't compare them. At the end of this agreement, Spirit will likely be 2-3 times bigger than they currently are, and they will be in a position to seek improvements comparable to other major airlines. But right now, expecting Alaska rates at a small national carrier is not realistic. I predict that it passes by at least a 2 to 1 margin.

Good job to the SPA reps. You guys put up a great fight, and made huge improvements for your pilots.

I love how you say "I wasn't going to jump in to much". You say that like you're a great leader and all the Spirit pilots will follow your every word. Hopefully airtran pilots don't listen to you

 

[jonjuan]

I love how you say "I wasn't going to jump in to much". You say that like you're a great leader and all the Spirit pilots will follow your every word. Hopefully airtran pilots don't listen to you

No kidding. He should be absolutely disgusted by first year and new hire pay. It looks as though a year one pilot should gross well under $30K. How is that a "professional wage?". What is ALPA saying to the experienced Spirit new hires by signing off and endorsing this obvious slap in the face? I'd like to see the wife of a new hire walk up to prater and ask him the same question to see what his response would be. Of course it would probably be, "Listen young lady, don't think of how much you will make when you really need it, rather think of how much you will make when you're 64 and don't really need it or heck, frankly don't care.".

 

[Jiminmem]

I hate to say it, but it looks like Spirit management won this strike.

 

[Flyer1015]

$38.50/hr new hire pay throughout duration of contract?! No pay increase for first year pay at ALL? WTF?

 

[bubbers44]

The only way he could get paid 38.50 throughout the contract is if he got fired every year and came back as a new hire. Green hair must fry the brain.

 

[bubbers44]

38.50 per hr would have been a 400% pay increase my first year as an airline pilot. We were all happy to have the job and looked forward to 2nd yr pay. All of us were jet captains with at least 1,000 jet and 5,000 total to get hired but that was in 1980. Probation pay the first year is to be expected no matter what your experience. Think ahead at least one year. The senior guys flying will make about what our 777 captains with 20+ years make now at AA at the end of their contract. If you get hired in the next 4 years at Spirit just plan on getting through the first year and things improve dramatically.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

First year as an airline pilot? Most newhires will have 5-10 years at a regional before getting the pleasuer of working at $38.50/hr. for a year. THE DUES HAVE ALREADY BEEN PAID!!!

 

[jonjuan]

38.50 per hr would have been a 400% pay increase my first year as an airline pilot. We were all happy to have the job and looked forward to 2nd yr pay. All of us were jet captains with at least 1,000 jet and 5,000 total to get hired but that was in 1980. Probation pay the first year is to be expected no matter what your experience. Think ahead at least one year. The senior guys flying will make about what our 777 captains with 20+ years make now at AA at the end of their contract. If you get hired in the next 4 years at Spirit just plan on getting through the first year and things improve dramatically.

Who friggin cares what aa pilots make. Spirit is making an a$$ load of money with 25 birds. Aa dl ua and us are losing hundreds of millions. If dl can pay over 50/yr to newhires, then spirit can at least pay them that much. Problem is, alpa could care less about a 35-40 year old new hire with kids who will have to figure out how to pay the mortgage on less than 30k gross. "oh, but it's just one small little bitty year.". Spirit can afford it as easily as wn can. Then again, swapa ain't alpa.

 

[SuperFLUF]

38.50 per hr would have been a 400% pay increase my first year as an airline pilot. ....

Starting to get REAL tired of hearing that.

Ever heard of inflation?

You can google it if you haven't.

What cost $38.50 in 1980, costs $98.94 in 2009....
or vice versa $38.50 in 2009 is $14.98 in 1980.

Lack of this basic understanding, along with the time-value of money invested and the absurdity of relying on a corporate funded pension is the reason why folks don't have the money to retire at 60.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Fun with numbers:

Frontier / JetBlue - Airbus 10 yr. Captain - $ 130,800 avg. annual guarantee

Frontier / JetBlue - Airbus 5 yr. F/O - $ 75,540 avg. annual guarantee


Spirit ( new contract ) - Airbus 10 yr. Captain - $118,998 annual guarantee

Spirit ( new contract ) - Airbus 5 yr. F/O - $ 65,966 annual guarantee

YKW

Those numbers can't be right. RJ Captains make more than that.

 

[RJ Bum]

RJ Captains make more than that.

Maybe in the year 2000...

 

[RJ Bum]

first year as an airline pilot? Most newhires will have 5-10 years at a regional before getting the pleasuer of working at $38.50/hr. For a year. The dues have already been paid!!!

+1000000

 

[RJ Bum]

Starting to get REAL tired of hearing that.

Ever heard of inflation?

You can google it if you haven't.

What cost $38.50 in 1980, costs $98.94 in 2009....
or vice versa $38.50 in 2009 is $14.98 in 1980.

Lack of this basic understanding, along with the time-value of money invested and the absurdity of relying on a corporate funded pension is the reason why folks don't have the money to retire at 60.

well said

 

[pipejockey]

Maybe in the year 2000...

IN THE YEEEEAR TWO THOOOSAAAAND....IN THE YEEEEAR TWO THOOOSAAAAND

A young and enthusiastic twentysomething, decides to make his dream a reality and embark on an exciting and lucrative new career. One in which garners respect and admiration of the general public, 6 figure salaries, wonderful benefits and an incredible pension (you know, all those things that don't exist anymore). Ten years later that same vigorous and ambitious young man is now approaching 40 and living in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

I guess he should have saved a lot of time and money and gone into management! Well don't I now feel the fool!

 

[PCL_128]

I think it's time ALPA starts hiring full time negotiators like management has

ALPA already employs dozens of professional negotiators. Two of the most experienced worked with the Spirit NC on this TA.

 

[say again]

ALPA already employs dozens of professional negotiators. Two of the most experienced worked with the Spirit NC on this TA.

Looks like they need more experience. Not a very good TA.

 

[Lear70]

Depends what you compare it to.

It's not a Major airline T.A. Spirit isn't a Major. It's on the Majors board because of the equipment they fly, that they fly to international destinations, and because they're an ALPA carrier. A lot of pilots want to know what's going on at Spirit so we let it sit in the Majors forum out of courtesy.

It technically belongs in the LCC / Nationals forum. They got a contract that basically puts them where AirTran was 10 years ago and, shocker, they're about the size AirTran was 10 years ago.

Yes, they have potential to grow dramatically, just like AirTran did, and maybe in 10 years, they'll be full-on Major airline status with 1,000+ pilots and will be working on a Major airline contract. Until then, this is their bridge contract taking them from where they are now towards a better working environment.

Only they can say if it's good enough for them. I have my personal opinions but, since it's not my airline, I've decided in the past 24 hours after reading the T.A. to not comment unless asked about very specific sections BY SPIRIT PILOTS. I still doubt it will be a slam-dunk, pretty sure it's going to be one of those 60/40 kind of votes but my sneaky suspicion is that it will pass...

 

[say again]

Key phrase Lear70-"They got a contract that basically puts them where AirTran was 10 years ago and, shocker, they're about the size AirTran was 10 years ago." Do you think that's a good thing?

 

[CFIT]

ALPA already employs dozens of professional negotiators. Two of the most experienced worked with the Spirit NC on this TA.

Kind of like the journalist that ALPO pays over $140,000.00 a year to write articles like "Tim is ALPA"?

Everybody at Herdon is over paid, except the secrateries, that's why they struck against ALPO.

Did the Spirit pilots get a lifetime pension like the on Prater has?

 

[samballs]

ALPA already employs dozens of professional negotiators. Two of the most experienced worked with the Spirit NC on this TA.

If CT is one of those then that explains why this is so bad

 

[j41driver]

The only way he could get paid 38.50 throughout the contract is if he got fired every year and came back as a new hire. Green hair must fry the brain.

Not sure what's so hard to figure out here....if a guy is hired on the date of signing he makes $38.50/hr. If a completely different guy is hired 4 years later he makes....$38.50/hr. Usually the 1st year FO's get some sort of raise on the anniversary of the date of signing just like all of the other pilots. Make sense yet?

 

[pipejockey]

ALPA already employs dozens of professional negotiators. Two of the most experienced worked with the Spirit NC on this TA.

Ok, so then there is absolutely no good reason to see the pay rates on this TA especially having struck for it. These rates are shameful.

It's not a Major airline T.A. Spirit isn't a Major. It's on the Majors board because of the equipment they fly

I thought we got paid based on the size of aircraft we fly, which I don't necessarily agree with. But now you are saying we should be paid based on the size of the company? I don't care if a company is operating 1 A-320 on charter flights. The Captain ought to be getting $200 bucks an hour and the FO $120!

They got a contract that basically puts them where AirTran was 10 years ago and, shocker, they're about the size AirTran was 10 years ago.

So lets see, Compass is about the same size Eagle was 15 years ago, so I guess their rates should be what Eagles were 15 years ago huh? Shocker!!

Yes, they have potential to grow dramatically, just like AirTran did, and maybe in 10 years, they'll be full-on Major airline status with 1,000+ pilots and will be working on a Major airline contract. Until then, this is their bridge contract taking them from where they are now towards a better working environment.

Well based on that way of thinking why don't the repukelick pilots have a major airline contract? They have over 2000 pilots and 1 billion in revenue. I mean h*ll, they are flying E190's for less than horizon, a regional airline with less than 1 billion in revenues, is flying CRJ 700's for, and barely matches Horizons Dash 8 pay. Explain that!

 

[pipejockey]

this is their bridge contract taking them from where they are now towards a better working environment.

I just adjusted these pay rates for the historical inflation of between 2.5 to 3 percent, and all this contract does is barely keep pace with inflation. Their earning power doesn't go up one bit. The only bridge this contract will lead to is no where!

 

[Lear70]

I thought we got paid based on the size of aircraft we fly, which I don't necessarily agree with. But now you are saying we should be paid based on the size of the company? I don't care if a company is operating 1 A-320 on charter flights. The Captain ought to be getting $200 bucks an hour and the FO $120!

I don't disagree with you, but that's for the Spirit pilots to decide. Again, if this were presented at AirTran, it would die. Badly. And I'd vote it down along with everyone else. Spirit? I just don't know which way it will go.

Well based on that way of thinking why don't the repukelick pilots have a major airline contract? They have over 2000 pilots and 1 billion in revenue. I mean h*ll, they are flying E190's for less than horizon, a regional airline with less than 1 billion in revenues, is flying CRJ 700's for, and barely matches Horizons Dash 8 pay. Explain that!

Yes, they should. Especially now that they're flying Airbus as well. Unfortunately, I think they're in for the longest fight of all the carriers for a contract that recognizes their size, aircraft type flown, and revenue stream, but that's a topic for another day.

Key phrase Lear70-"They got a contract that basically puts them where AirTran was 10 years ago and, shocker, they're about the size AirTran was 10 years ago." Do you think that's a good thing?

Nope. Just making an observation. Like I said, I don't LIKE Spirit's T.A. I think it sucks and I wouldn't want to work under it.

That said, I'm not going to break down each section item by item like I did on AirTran's T.A. (and will in the next one, since management has given me no reason NOT to), or editorialize on the issues that have jumped out at me from reading it.

I also don't know if their pilots are willing to go back on strike to get something better... like I also said before, I think it's going to be a close vote one way or another. Time will tell...

 

[bubbers44]

First year pay sucks. It doesn't matter if it is this year or 4 years from now. It still sucks. Keep flying your commuter if you don't want to deal with it. Five years from now look back and see how wise that decision was. Your choice.

 

[critterair2]

Can anyone tell me why health insurance rates? copays? etc.... are even in this thing? I have never seen that before however I have limited experience....does swa, Airtran, JB anybody have this?

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

It's not a Major airline T.A. Spirit isn't a Major. It's on the Majors board because of the equipment they fly, that they fly to international destinations, and because they're an ALPA carrier. A lot of pilots want to know what's going on at Spirit so we let it sit in the Majors forum out of courtesy.

The problem is, every single "major" management team will be holding this up to their respective pilot unions saying "SEE?! THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO COMPETE WITH!"

This contract has DIRECT implications on every "major" airline going forward.

After talking to many many pilots in other legacy carriers, I don't think I speak for just myself when I say this TA is weak at best and will have negative implications on thousands of pilots going forward.

The stars aligned for the Spirit pilots and they* blew it by panicking and shooting their load too early.

(* I say "they" because, although the MEC was responsible for accepting this TA, it will be eventually ratified by the membership)

 

[LaGarbage Man]

The problem is, every single "major" management team will be holding this up to their respective pilot unions saying "SEE?! THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO COMPETE WITH!"

This contract has DIRECT implications on every "major" airline going forward.

After talking to many many pilots in other legacy carriers, I don't think I speak for just myself when I say this TA is weak at best and will have negative implications on thousands of pilots going forward.

The stars aligned for the Spirit pilots and they* blew it by panicking and shooting their load too early.

(* I say "they" because, although the MEC was responsible for accepting this TA, it will be eventually ratified by the membership)

Wow!! Are you feeling ok Frank? Man this TA must be bad. It is one of the few times that I have seen Frank break from character and post as a pilot.

 

[MDP727]

"The problem is, every single "major" management team will be holding this up to their respective pilot unions saying "SEE?! THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO COMPETE WITH!""

I guess I don't see it. Here's the pay comparisons.

Spirit Max pay $186
AA MD 80 Max $161
Cont $150
Delta $162
United $137
UsAir $142

 

[Crzipilot]

It's pretty simple. as with any bean counter organization, they will look at the whole contract, not just the pay numbers. For every paragraph in the contract the bean counters will come up with a valuation for it. So without going into what all the spirit contract has, the beaners will look at those cost items that the spirit contract does NOT have, and say, Oh, You want to go above 186??? Well here, take the spirit contract, and give up those little items within your own contract to get that hourly pay rate.

Not being able to speak on behalf of the spirit t/a, what retirement, insurance costs, trip rig, etc etc etc, do they have? All of that adds up, and will chip away at the bottom line dollar ...

Now if the T/A contains all the scope protections, and other hidden gems of other contracts, AND they are at 186/hr, then it could make a difference.

Look at the whole pay scale. Would it be possible for management to offset some of the higher end pay, (I.E. think it topped out at 18yrs, how many 18yr capts are there?) by going a little heavy on crew staffing, get less longevity capts into seats, hire bunch of f/o's at 38.50/hr, build lines to minimum hours, over staff with cheap labor, make it deplorable enough to get a high turnover rate, and restock with 38/hr pilots.

Last I looked there are quite a few guys still on the street, and still a trickle of guys that would jump at leaving a f/o rj job, for a f/o airbus job. RJ Capt's may not jump, but if your RJ pay tops at 35/hr.....38 would be a pay raise, with that 18yr pay looming out there like a carrot, how many will actually get there???

So if they drive down the availability of guys able to fly above their lines, fly reserves at just guarantee, how many days can they work you guys? change staffing levels, etc etc etc?