Mesaba to Phase out ALL the Saabs

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

So in theory 60 airplanes is about 600-700 pilots, we currently have around 1200 total with 200 already on furlough. So 1000 minus 600 is about 400 pilots fat over the next two years. Any predictions if attrition do to the flow through to Delta and other airlines hiring in the next two years will be enough to mitigate more furloughs?? I have heard that Delta might up Mesabas flow through numbers from the current 9 a month to 20 to offset parking the saabs. Anyone else hear that one or is it even possible to change that number??

It is possible.

I have heard nothing official.

I don't know the exact language but DAL and DAL MEC decide whether we can have more than 9 a month. Now when this flow deal was jammed up our ...it was Mesaba that wanted to limit the number of flows because we were hiring like crazy and didn't want to make the training situation worse.

Maybe the company will ease the pain by allowing more than 9.

I am one of the Greedy, Lazy old Captains who didn't want to reduce my raise. I haven't forgotten how difficult it was to make it as an FO. But you don't fix this kind of problem internally. It must be done by negotiating with the company.

 

[xjgearbtch]

I predict just like the last round of negotiations that the blended rate will remain because the company will slam some new tactic at us. Last time it was Big Sky, just wait to see what is up their sleeve. The blended FO rate will never go away!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Well, last time the argument against getting rid of the blended rate was that it was, in the words of the Neg Comm Chair, "too complicated."

Good luck, XJ guys and gals.

 

[OneBadLT123]

Deep down all of us at XJ knew this was happening. I left just shortly after the first announcement was made last year. Right then and there we all knew the end was coming for the Saabs. It wasn't a matter of if at that point, just when.

I wish all the Saab guys the best at XJ. Lots of awesome crews I worked with there during my short stint. Best of luck to all of you guys!

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Just thinking out loud...and this is in line with the BIG DAL picture.

Let's say they want to give us more planes. Our cost structure is good but not the best. Our safety and service is good but we are heavy Senior Captains.

It's easy to prune the bottom side of the list. But cutting the high end of the list gets pretty hard unless something awesome/devastating happens - like a flow agreement or a bankruptcy. I mean people on the low side are happy with having a job and the senior people are fed up with the BS.

Park 1/3 of the fleet and that takes care of the bottom side of the list that is unhappy with the blended rate (note: nobody is happy). Downgrades happen in droves. Fresh to medium Captains are getting pissed. High seniority Capts. don't care. As we saw during the shamruptcy those low to medium Captains left at 50 a month sometimes - making Mesaba more cost efficient.

Suddenly DAL starts hiring. Compass has said they are going to hold the flow because they need the pilots (rumor I have read and not sure they can do), possibly opening up Mesaba to more than 9 a month and 10% of pilot group (this wording IS in our Flow agreement). So here is someplace to prune the more senior Captains off of the payroll.

Now DAL has us by the sack (loss of fleet and furloughs) and comes to us with something like CRJ700's (could be anything - Dashes of some flavor - but I really think it will be a CRJ product). There will be promises of some huge number (25 to 50), then there will be a hook in the bait...say a blended CAPTAIN rate for a combined 700/900 rate. The second hook will be - we can't split the FO rates cause of the blended Capt rates. But we'll raise the FO rates. Third hook in the treble will be something that removes the 200's.

I don't see a Big Sky type stick cause we already have Compass and Comair as wholly owned sticks and the rest of the contracted carriers.

I see us being the Low end 900 drivers but high end 700 drivers.

Now where will the aircraft come from? Well DAL has a plan to refurbish 60+ of them with first class seats. They could easily put them here just like they gave ASA the 4. Also there are 35 new 700's that could be purchased. I've spent a lot of time in the scope clauses and while I am probably wrong, I know the 76's are beyond cap, but the 70's are below. Just search and read about the DAL/NWA scope on here...it's pretty clear.

Now I am sure my over active imagination is getting the best of me but after shamruptcy being beaten by NWA for so long, I believe this is a possibility.

 

[SEVEN]

Just thinking out loud...and this is in line with the BIG DAL picture.

Let's say they want to give us more planes. Our cost structure is good but not the best. Our safety and service is good but we are heavy Senior Captains.

It's easy to prune the bottom side of the list. But cutting the high end of the list gets pretty hard unless something awesome/devastating happens - like a flow agreement or a bankruptcy. I mean people on the low side are happy with having a job and the senior people are fed up with the BS.

Park 1/3 of the fleet and that takes care of the bottom side of the list that is unhappy with the blended rate (note: nobody is happy). Downgrades happen in droves. Fresh to medium Captains are getting pissed. High seniority Capts. don't care. As we saw during the shamruptcy those low to medium Captains left at 50 a month sometimes - making Mesaba more cost efficient.

Suddenly DAL starts hiring. Compass has said they are going to hold the flow because they need the pilots (rumor I have read and not sure they can do), possibly opening up Mesaba to more than 9 a month and 10% of pilot group (this wording IS in our Flow agreement). So here is someplace to prune the more senior Captains off of the payroll.

Now DAL has us by the sack (loss of fleet and furloughs) and comes to us with something like CRJ700's (could be anything - Dashes of some flavor - but I really think it will be a CRJ product). There will be promises of some huge number (25 to 50), then there will be a hook in the bait...say a blended CAPTAIN rate for a combined 700/900 rate. The second hook will be - we can't split the FO rates cause of the blended Capt rates. But we'll raise the FO rates. Third hook in the treble will be something that removes the 200's.

I don't see a Big Sky type stick cause we already have Compass and Comair as wholly owned sticks and the rest of the contracted carriers.

I see us being the Low end 900 drivers but high end 700 drivers.

Now where will the aircraft come from? Well DAL has a plan to refurbish 60+ of them with first class seats. They could easily put them here just like they gave ASA the 4. Also there are 35 new 700's that could be purchased. I've spent a lot of time in the scope clauses and while I am probably wrong, I know the 76's are beyond cap, but the 70's are below. Just search and read about the DAL/NWA scope on here...it's pretty clear.

Now I am sure my over active imagination is getting the best of me but after shamruptcy being beaten by NWA for so long, I believe this is a possibility.

I agree with one thing....the company will ask for a blended Capt. rate if we get 700's.

 

[EL10]

I unfortunately disagree with you on your assertion of being able to use section 6 to correct FO pay rates. The only things that matter in a section 6 negotiation are where the union wants to put the money and the resolve and unity of the groups negotiating.

You will face the same headwinds as last time you negotiated. The company will want to stick you with the cost of a rebid and its training costs. Which means the union will have to balance that expense and benefit. You will still need to decide if the FOs get a bigger raise at the expense of the Captains. Nothing will be different.

Now if you do the math and forecast out a three to four year negotiation process, which way puts more money in the pilot work groups pocket? You might be shocked to see which way costs the company more money for years past amendable. A higher cost is what will drive the company to the table to stabilize the expenses.

What are the reasons you believe this would alter the economics of the company if the proposal had been agreed to?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I unfortunately disagree with you on your assertion of being able to use section 6 to correct FO pay rates. The only things that matter in a section 6 negotiation are where the union wants to put the money and the resolve and unity of the groups negotiating.

You will face the same headwinds as last time you negotiated. The company will want to stick you with the cost of a rebid and its training costs. Which means the union will have to balance that expense and benefit. You will still need to decide if the FOs get a bigger raise at the expense of the Captains. Nothing will be different.

Now if you do the math and forecast out a three to four year negotiation process, which way puts more money in the pilot work groups pocket? You might be shocked to see which way costs the company more money for years past amendable. A higher cost is what will drive the company to the table to stabilize the expenses.

What are the reasons you believe this would alter the economics of the company if the proposal had been agreed to?

By the time negotiations start we will be an all CRJ company. There should be no remaining training costs,(maybe a very minor amount of differences training for 200/900) This is the perfect time to make the change because of this. The key is doing it and then never making the same mistake down the road to allow it to happen again.

 

[EL10]

You are correct the key is to shut the door on blended rates. As I understand last I heard they had not developed a differences course at XJ (that must have changed).

I am just tying to understand the economic reasons why it was not a good idea to try to correct the imbalance in pay of the FOs.

I have to say I was impressed that for the first time in recent memory that a pilot group tried to correct the disparity inside it for the better of the junior folks.

 

[xjlifer]

The reason the pay proposal did not go thru is becasue pilot unity goes as far as the next paycheck. I am not even sure the company would have agreed to this. However to say we will get the F.O's a raise in the next contract is a joke. If this had gone thru it would have made a meeningful difference in many F.O's lifes. The fact is our next contract is at best 4 to 5 years away. This would have helped this year.

 

[DoinTime]

I agree with one thing....the company will ask for a blended Capt. rate if we get 700's.

I believe you already have a rate scale that covers both aircraft right now.

 

[79%N1]

Let me see. You guys think that because Delta is ridding the small t-props, that the Delta pilots are just going to make nice and grant you more flow through slots to make it up to you???? Riiiight! Because they love the flow-through deals as it is! And they are all sooo magnanimous, too!

You need to look at what Delta has done in the past few years to Comair and even ASA. Many planes lost, pilots furloughed. Management didn't toss some 70's their way to ease the pain, nor did the Delta pilots extend some jobs.

 

[mesaba13]

What is not to like about the flow from Delta pilots prospective? Its job security if they furlough.

 

[Whataboutbob]

Let me see. You guys think that because Delta is ridding the small t-props, that the Delta pilots are just going to make nice and grant you more flow through slots to make it up to you???? Riiiight! Because they love the flow-through deals as it is! And they are all sooo magnanimous, too!

You need to look at what Delta has done in the past few years to Comair and even ASA. Many planes lost, pilots furloughed. Management didn't toss some 70's their way to ease the pain, nor did the Delta pilots extend some jobs.

I could be wrong but I don't think it was Delta Pilots that wanted to pour the coals to the ASA and Comair guys. I think that was Delta management. Why would Delta "Pilots" care if there is more guys/gals coming from Mesaba's pilot group to mainline. If its not Mesaba pilots its going to be some other Regional pilot (probably a few military and major guys also) taking the spots in class. Plus Delta pilots would get the rights to spots on the Mesaba seniority list in case of a furlough. From a managments stand point its probably cheaper for them considering they own Mesaba. Take a senior pilot from Mesaba start him at year 1 Delta pay and upgrade a junior cheaper guy at Mesaba to take the vacated captain slot and avoid the cost of furloughing at Mesaba (unemployment cost and training costs). Sounds like a win/win. I wonder if you ask a Delta pilot what they prefer 6-15 year Mesaba guys flowing up or Compass guys that have flown brand new jets (DC9 replacements) for three years what their answer would be?? You're right, probably neither we are all scum, lol!

 

[SEVEN]

I believe you already have a rate scale that covers both aircraft right now.

There is a pay scale for both, but not a pay scale that would be "blended" for both aircraft on one pay scale.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Let me see. You guys think that because Delta is ridding the small t-props, that the Delta pilots are just going to make nice and grant you more flow through slots to make it up to you???? Riiiight! Because they love the flow-through deals as it is! And they are all sooo magnanimous, too!

You need to look at what Delta has done in the past few years to Comair and even ASA. Many planes lost, pilots furloughed. Management didn't toss some 70's their way to ease the pain, nor did the Delta pilots extend some jobs.

Don't put Mesaba pilots in the same category as the RJDC or whatever it was called. We don't feel that mainline owes us anything or we are entitled to something. I don't expect anything. I do look at possibilities based on scope clauses and what is going on. Things are getting pretty dark over here and I don't think anyone making predictions is that out of line.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if DAL shuts us down and have absolutely no doubt that if DAL offered DAL pilots $.50 an hour raise if mainline pilots would would just machete us in a Walmart parking lot. On the other hand I do expect respect for my efforts and NOT being treated as the enemy. I did not take your jobs. DAL and NWA pilots, through contract negotiations and bankruptcy threats allowed contract changes that allowed certain jet flying to contractors. I didn't hold a gun to your head. Go talk to your MEC.

Personally I wish we didn't have jets, but I only fly what our company has.
I didn't get to choose. Not even when I was hired.

If mainline takes all the aircraft away as they just did with the SAAB's, well so be it. We aren't crying because ASA, Skywest and Comair start flying into MSP and DTW (I did hear about a lot of things said to our people when we started flying into ATL and SLC). We are used to shrinking while others are growing. I don't like it. I think our company is worth better consideration. But that has to come from mainline and we know how we are thought of.

As a contractor, I think we offer a good value. I don't know what our agreement with DAL is but the NWA agreement wasn't anything like what Pinnacle or anyone else had. We didn't have guaranteed profit margins. We didn't get a lot of things. I do know that NWA hammered us all the time about on time performance. Our safety record speaks for itself. Customer service was never that much of a concern with NWA but things are improving. I don't think ANYONE at mainline was worried about riding on our aircraft. Our training has been some of the best and since the Colgan accident, what we do at Mesaba is going to affect the whole industry.

I am proud of my airline and I work hard to make it the best. Hopefully we have value to DAL. If not...go somewhere else and speak your hate. I don't have time for it.

 

[flap operator]

Grab - very well said in your last post! I agree.

 

[rene]

Section

I am one of those captains.... I was , and still am against that proposal even if I soon go back to fo. Has nothing to do with being shortsighted, actually quite the opposite. If that went through, there would be NOTHING the fo's would get when we go to section 6 next year. The key to fixing the pay problem is getting rid of the blended payscale. I can guarantee that wouldn't have happened if the pay proposal passed. Now that it didn't we have a shot (maybe a long one but still) at fixing the cause of the problem.

And how long do you think section 6 will take if it STARTS next year? There will be 350 Mesaba pilots furloughed as a result of this announcement. Just my 2 cents but the decision was short sighted and some might argue - selfish. The problem isn't the blended payscale.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

And how long do you think section 6 will take if it STARTS next year? There will be 350 Mesaba pilots furloughed as a result of this announcement. Just my 2 cents but the decision was short sighted and some might argue - selfish. The problem isn't the blended payscale.

Those pilots will be furloughed either way. We have 2 hopes to mitigate that, senior guys moving on to the majors and something coming along to replace some of the Saabs.
What do you think the problem is if it isn't the blended payscale?

 

[rene]

Those pilots will be furloughed either way. We have 2 hopes to mitigate that, senior guys moving on to the majors and something coming along to replace some of the Saabs.
What do you think the problem is if it isn't the blended payscale?

I think the problem is too many pilots in the Delta connection family who are willing to work for lower pay and lower cost work rules.

In my oppinion, Delta is looking for a "NEWCO" cost structure to get the growth and Mesaba is anything but that.