United and Continental - Scope is NOT for Sale

[skywdriver]

There are a million things that are going to happen regarding this merger over the next two years, but the biggest impact is going to be from whether or not we take the stance right now that scope is not and will never be for sale by this joint pilot group.

We have the chance to get something back now that has been degrading this profession since 9/11. Let's do something about it. Please call your reps and tell them that a contract with scope relief is a no vote regardless of any other content.

Do not let management "manage" our expectations in the new contract. They are the ones under pressure from Wall Street to get this thing done the Delta way, and that includes a contract.

Lets get a contract that eliminates all 70 seat flying at the expiration of each agreement; one that contains solid work rules and will provide some career stability (at least to the extent possible). I understand that those guys who are just around for 5-10 more years may be more interested in dollars, but I ask all of you to consider the future of this profession before you vote with your wallet. Many have sacrificed in the past so that we might have a smoother, safer, and better future as pilots.

We stand at a fork in the road right now. We have negotiating power as labor is required to make this deal shine to Wall Street. Let's make the right decision and set this career back on the right path. If we as a pilot group of 11,000 cannot take back some of what has been given with the leverage that we hold right now, then we have most certainly failed.

Someone please post this on each individual airline forum, and anywhere else it might motivate some to take action. We need to take charge of this situation and join together to create an airline we can be proud to spend the rest of our careers at. We hold the cards, lets play them wisely as many other pilots, both current and future are depending on us.

 

[rattler]

The CAL reps have already commited to this. Any TA with scope relief allowing the new carrier to fly anything larger than a 50 RJ will never make it out of the MEC.

 

[mamba20]

The CAL reps have already commited to this. Any TA with scope relief allowing the new carrier to fly anything lather than a 50 RJ will never make it out of the MEC.

Sure hope your right about that. If they sell us out again and this time with scope then its time for some union house cleaning.

 

[skywdriver]

Sure hope your right about that. If they sell us out again and this time with scope then its time for some union house cleaning.

the more we get on board, the better. an extra call to the union never hurts. i want to see the UAL side making a similar statement, so the company can keep from wasting our time with any contract offer that allows more scope relief.

 

[ATA For Now!]

Great post skywdriver! As a UAL furloughee, I agree!

 

[Dumbluck]

You guys are gonna get hosed, divide and conquer. I know UAL mgt is a little slow on on the uptake, but I am willing to bet they might have learned something from watching NW, Delta and every regional airline flying screw their pilots. Considering that the economy is still in the crapper and ALPA is as useless as ever; plus you have 60+ y/o who run the union are even more greedy than before (pension cuts, stock market crash).
Your union reps will sell the 10 year and junior pilots down the river for a extra day off. If you are one of the THOUSANDS on furlough. Forget it, use your state beni's and learn how to do something useful, or get a job with the county holding a shovel. Its no longer a career or profession, its a %#$ty job, if you think otherwise ask your husband/wife or kids if the they think its worth it. Money isn't everything, doesn't even pay that well anymore, certainly not enough to justify the QOL

 

[Vref+10]

I talked to my CAL Reps in EWR and they will not budge on SCOPE. They have assured me they will even use their roll call vote to block any TA that gives up SCOPE. The biggest obstacle will be trying to reverse the damage done in UAL's SCOPE. I realize that is was done with the threat of a bankruptcy judge holding a gun to their head, but nevertheless, the damage must be undone. I was told that putting freezes on the current UAL 70-seaters and letting the contracts expire will be the initial plan.

I personally think that we should require them to park all planes over 50 seats immediately regardless of the contracts they signed. But the problem is the NMB may not view it that way.

I think this shows how important SCOPE really is. And once you have given it up, or portions of it up, an incredible amount of negotiating capital is required to get it back.

Even the CAL SCOPE is not perfect. We need to get rid of the 70-seat turboprops too, although they are not as much of a threat as the 70-seat jets, due to the limited range of the turboprops.

 

[davessn763]

US regional market changes drive jet vs turboprop debate

80 to 90 seat turboprops being developed and look at the last graph comparing the Bombardier C series to 737's and A320 series.

Now is the time to draw the line at 50 seats. Jet, turboprop, piston, whatever mainline pilots should be flying it.

 

[Draginass]

Kudos to the CAL MEC. You guys need to take back ALPA from Lee Moak and those management lapdogs at the DAL MEC.

 

[Crucianpilot]

You guys are gonna get hosed, divide and conquer. I know UAL mgt is a little slow on on the uptake, but I am willing to bet they might have learned something from watching NW, Delta and every regional airline flying screw their pilots. Considering that the economy is still in the crapper and ALPA is as useless as ever; plus you have 60+ y/o who run the union are even more greedy than before (pension cuts, stock market crash).
Your union reps will sell the 10 year and junior pilots down the river for a extra day off. If you are one of the THOUSANDS on furlough. Forget it, use your state beni's and learn how to do something useful, or get a job with the county holding a shovel. Its no longer a career or profession, its a %#$ty job, if you think otherwise ask your husband/wife or kids if the they think its worth it. Money isn't everything, doesn't even pay that well anymore, certainly not enough to justify the QOL

You obviously don't have a clue about how times are changing here. We now have reps in place that are willing to defend scope and protect each and every one of our pilots, from the senior guys to those of us like myself who have only been here a few years. I have the utmost confidence that they will do there best to once and for all provide us with the contract that we have fought for and deserve. SCOPE IS NOT FOR SALE.

 

[whatitdoing?]

SCOPE IS NOT FOR SALE.

You'd be suprised how many people are fed up with it. We'll take it back, I'm confident.

 

[NuGuy]

The CAL reps have already commited to this. Any TA with scope relief allowing the new carrier to fly anything larger than a 50 RJ will never make it out of the MEC.

Hopefully the tide has turned. Everyone I fly with at DAL has had enough.

Hold the line, and maybe we can give you some backup in 2012.

Nu

 

[jtf]

Can the merger go on even if the pilots won't agree to a contract because of scope or can the pilots really stop it? Not trying to flame, just trying to get an answer- I've asked if the pilots can shoot it down on multiple threads, but I haven't gotten an answer. I'm sure they can make it more difficult and threaten to make it like USAir all over again, but can they kill the merger with a no vote? I hope they have the leverage so they can use it for a better contract. That bar needs to go up way beyond the dollar offered last time.

 

[Clarence]

The future of this profession is in your hands as major airline pilots and the battle for that future is going on right now.

If more and more of the flying we do is done by contract players that are forced to compete with one another for short term contracts, the income and quality of life for all pilots will continue its downward spiral for years to come. I know this notion is most likely not a new concept to most of you, so I am writing this only to give you a little more info in the hope that you continue to make scope the most important issue going forward.

The management of the regional that I work for has a major boner for the next size up of airplanes. 90 to 120 seats. They have all kinds of data and forcasts that show this size is the next big growth spurt for the airlines and they want a big piece of it. Yes, I know, scope should prevent that. But when our management and your management want the same thing, beware.

As it is, the mentality of most regionals is - "we have to be the cheapest to survive." Obviously this is exactly what management wants. Short term (3 year or less) contracts and low expectations for pay or QOL improvements are in the future for all regional airlines. The negotiators for the union at our level do the best they can but have little bargaining power from the start.

The only hope for the profession, wether working for a regional for life or wanting to move up to the majors, is for the bulk of the negotiating power to stay with the pilot group that OWNS the flying.

Please, for all of our sakes, and the sake of this profession, don't let short term thinking dilute your resolve to maintain or improve your scope protection.

 

[mamba20]

I have ZERO problem with 50, 70, 90 and even 120 seat "RJ'S" coming on property IF they are flown by mainline pilots for mainline pilot pay. Period. No scope, No Vote.

 

[ualdriver]

Can the merger go on even if the pilots won't agree to a contract because of scope or can the pilots really stop it? Not trying to flame, just trying to get an answer- I've asked if the pilots can shoot it down on multiple threads, but I haven't gotten an answer. I'm sure they can make it more difficult and threaten to make it like USAir all over again, but can they kill the merger with a no vote? I hope they have the leverage so they can use it for a better contract. That bar needs to go up way beyond the dollar offered last time.

No, I don't think labor can "kill the deal.". We're labor. It's the shareholders' company.

Now it's in management's best interest to obtain the synergies this merger is supposed to bring about, which I have read is to the tune of over a billion dollars. How they arrived at that big number I have not seen, but surely a portion of that number will fall upon flight operations and it's pilots. The merged company is not going to get much help from us, however, until we get a fair contract. The posters above can bitch about how "ineffective" ALPA is in their typical cynical matter, but the reality is that we do carry some weight and we can make our corner of the merger "easy" or "hard.". Management most definitely wants "easy." I guess we'll see how smoothly they want things to go in the up and coming months.

I haven't a clue how this scope thing is going to turn out. Our scope is so different, and UAL's so inferior to CAL's, that I'm not sure how you bring the two together. Regardless, hopefully all the guys that are chest beating on this forum are showing up at union meetings, introducing themselves to their reps, calling them on the phone, and letting them know what their expectations are. Flightinfo posts accomplish nothing. Even if you don't like ALPA for whatever your reason is, I'd suggest you start paying attention instead of getting your info from here. You can go back to your regular ALPA bashing after the merger.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Spoke with both IAH reps, they both said SCOPE IS NOT FOR SALE!!! There was no beating around the bush, no political jargon, talk or excuses. I am confident that there will be a line in the sand. EWR reps are on the same boat, and what we are hearing is that UAL reps are on board too. Time to take it back!!!!!!

 

[skywdriver]

No, I don't think labor can "kill the deal.". We're labor. It's the shareholders' company.

Now it's in management's best interest to obtain the synergies this merger is supposed to bring about, which I have read is to the tune of over a billion dollars. How they arrived at that big number I have not seen, but surely a portion of that number will fall upon flight operations and it's pilots. The merged company is not going to get much help from us, however, until we get a fair contract. The posters above can bitch about how "ineffective" ALPA is in their typical cynical matter, but the reality is that we do carry some weight and we can make our corner of the merger "easy" or "hard.". Management most definitely wants "easy." I guess we'll see how smoothly they want things to go in the up and coming months.

I haven't a clue how this scope thing is going to turn out. Our scope is so different, and UAL's so inferior to CAL's, that I'm not sure how you bring the two together. Regardless, hopefully all the guys that are chest beating on this forum are showing up at union meetings, introducing themselves to their reps, calling them on the phone, and letting them know what their expectations are. Flightinfo posts accomplish nothing. Even if you don't like ALPA for whatever your reason is, I'd suggest you start paying attention instead of getting your info from here. You can go back to your regular ALPA bashing after the merger.

I have had numerous conversations with my reps and I am not even on property. I would encourage everyone to do the same. Let them know that scope is not negotiable. The reason for my post on here was to encourage everyone to take action by contacting their union.

 

[Mike man]

"kill the deal."

Labor can absolutely kill the deal--after the fact.

 

[MINIME]

Labor is going to have alot more leverage than some may think. Scope is key. This merger is a long way from being done. If both sides play their cards correctly, CAL/UAL, it can turn out to be profitable and game changer for the industry.