SkyWest showing videos of crippled folks and.......

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This can be said for almost every airline that has costs associated with belonging to a trade organization. Whether it is the ATA or RAA most airlines use "money" to pay an organization to represent the company and sometimes that is in contradiction to the best interest of the pilots. According to the RAA Annual Report, 32 regional airlines (union and non-union) take the money that was made by their workers and pay dues to the RAA to speak on behalf of the company.

Agreed, however, most of those regionals have their own representation to counter what the RAA says in testimony. The Skywest pilots do not. Therefore Roger Cohen speaks for Skywest pilots.

I think it is important to differentiate between being professional and advancing the profession. You do not need to belong to an autonomous group to be a professional. In many cases you do need to belong to one to have representation and advance the profession.

Valid however, professionalism is putting aside ones own interest and looking out for the good of the public. This includes a pilots personal comfort and gain as well as a few extra dollars that the company wants.

However, when a Skywest pilots makes the professional effort and the company says no we want a few extra dollars, what recourse does the pilot have? Threatened with discipline up to and including termination, the professional wanna be does as he is told. It is a sad state, because the OO pilots have had many chances to obtain professional status for themselves and they have simply chosen to reject.

Recall... professionalism is a choice.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Rez, you are the poster child for everything wrong with ALPA. You are always right. You know better than everyone. Everyone who disagrees with you is ________. [stupid, naive, brainwashed, etc...] I'd guess that you have single handedly turned more SkyWest pilots against ALPA with your FI ramblings than any anti union manager over there. Just like Tim Martins, Rez IS ALPA!

Please stop. You're not doing us any favors. Really.

 

[Dubya]

Rez, you are the poster child for everything wrong with ALPA. You are always right. You know better than everyone. Everyone who disagrees with you is ________. [stupid, naive, brainwashed, etc...] I'd guess that you have single handedly turned more SkyWest pilots against ALPA with your FI ramblings than any anti union manager over there. Just like Tim Martins, Rez IS ALPA!

Please stop. You're not doing us any favors. Really.

POTY. Chicken F-ing dinner.

Bob, tell her what she's won.

 

[Ski Bum]

Agreed, however, most of those regionals have their own representation to counter what the RAA says in testimony. The Skywest pilots do not. Therefore Roger Cohen speaks for Skywest pilots.

I agree with you, because we do not have a voice, the RAA could be interpreted as our voice.

Valid however, professionalism is putting aside ones own interest and looking out for the good of the public. This includes a pilots personal comfort and gain as well as a few extra dollars that the company wants.

However, when a Skywest pilots makes the professional effort and the company says no we want a few extra dollars, what recourse does the pilot have? Threatened with discipline up to and including termination, the professional wanna be does as he is told. It is a sad state, because the OO pilots have had many chances to obtain professional status for themselves and they have simply chosen to reject.

If you have to be a member of a union to obtain professional status then are Doctors professionals? Lawyers? Engineers? Financial Analysts? They must not be because they haven't unionized and "obtained professional status." This thread started because of a well intentioned, but poorly executed, class at SkyWest. This class and the professionalism of our pilot group (which is how well we do our job) have nothing to do with whether or not we want to join a union.

The situation you described with our pilot group having no recourse is absolutely correct, but it has no bearing on our professionalism. If SkyWest cut our pay by 10% (maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas), I wouldn't go out and do 10% less work, or do a 90% good job. I would still be a professional and do the job to the best of my ability (while looking for a job that paid more). Again, I think you are speaking to "advancing the profession" which for some reason that escapes my comprehension, my colleagues have refused to do for decades.

Recall... professionalism is a choice.

Yes it is a choice, a choice in one's own personal conduct while performing duties associated with their profession. It is not a choice in how you get compensated, how long your duty day can be, or what the reserve rules are, or as is the case at SkyWest, not having a choice in any of those things.

 

[vtech]

Those posting on here who are berating the presentation are the same people who are being marginalized by the majority of pilots with whom you work unless you're on a terminal VLA program like Inthegoo. If you're him then you haven't worked in a long, long time. To those who continue with your negative posts, your desperation is apparent. Your negativity does nothing but push you into an isolated position. Not sure what satisfaction you get out of your unbridled and continuing negativity. Good luck with that, though. You are part of a shrinking minority.

 

[nimtz]

Those posting on here who are berating the presentation are the same people who are being marginalized by the majority of pilots with whom you work unless you're on a terminal VLA program like Inthegoo. If you're him then you haven't worked in a long, long time. To those who continue with your negative posts, your desperation is apparent. Your negativity does nothing but push you into an isolated position. Not sure what satisfaction you get out of your unbridled and continuing negativity. Good luck with that, though. You are part of a shrinking minority.

If the majority turn into tea bags like u that are impressed by this 'presentation', then I'll gladly leave my mainline job behind. I'm sure you'll undercut me out soon enough w/ the joy of being a crewmember on your side. I have enough confidence in myself and respect for those who trained me to prevent me from stating a creed on my day off while fighting back tears like u.

 

[Draginass]

How about this one:

No one is more pathetic than I. I am a copilot - a just barely qualified and grossly underpaid member of the commuter flight crew whose purpose is to make money for the owners of the company.

Since I don't really make any decisions because I'm not the captain, so it just doesn't matter.

I am pissed off all the time. The company tries to manipulate my emotions through lame brainwashing courses and facist-like creed recitation.

I will conduct myself to just well enough not to get fired.

I will not compromise my integrity or safety, unless the company puts pressure on me.

I am not a leader. I am there because the FAA forces the airline to have copilots. I am a copilot.

 

[CX880]

If the majority turn into tea bags like u that are impressed by this 'presentation', then I'll gladly leave my mainline job behind. I'm sure you'll undercut me out soon enough w/ the joy of being a crewmember on your side. I have enough confidence in myself and respect for those who trained me to prevent me from stating a creed on my day off while fighting back tears like u.

Hahaha well said. Somebody apparently likes to be on their knees.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with you, because we do not have a voice, the RAA could be interpreted as our voice.

Copy and valid.

If you have to be a member of a union to obtain professional status then are Doctors professionals? Lawyers? Engineers? Financial Analysts? They must not be because they haven't unionized and "obtained professional status." This thread started because of a well intentioned, but poorly executed, class at SkyWest. This class and the professionalism of our pilot group (which is how well we do our job) have nothing to do with whether or not we want to join a union.

You are missing a valid point....

As much as Skywest pilots look and act the part of professionals, they have no method to enforce it. Meaning they have no CBA and no ASAP program. OO pilots can talk the talk but they cannot walk the walk. Same with JB and VA pilots.

As the PIC I have been pushed by management to operate my jet counter to my professional instinct. However, I knew that with a CBA and ASAP that I would be protected. My CBA states that the PIC is the unquestioned authority on the aircraft. While the FARs also state that, and OO pilots might feel that is adequate protection... it is... when dealing with the FAA. However, your employment is something else... The FAA might be satisfied that you operated safely, but they do not care if you fly again and the Feds won't protect your paycheck.

In addition, Doctors and Lawyers have Associations to represent them on CapHill.

The situation you described with our pilot group having no recourse is absolutely correct, but it has no bearing on our professionalism. If SkyWest cut our pay by 10% (maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas), I wouldn't go out and do 10% less work, or do a 90% good job. I would still be a professional and do the job to the best of my ability (while looking for a job that paid more). Again, I think you are speaking to "advancing the profession" which for some reason that escapes my comprehension, my colleagues have refused to do for decades.

Again, it has to do with the ability to tell a manager no, who is pushing you as PIC to operate against your desire for safety. In the end, when push comes to shove, Skywest pilots cannot do that.

Yes it is a choice, a choice in one's own personal conduct while performing duties associated with their profession.

Conduct and image is one a part of professionalism, but backing it up with a CBA, ASAP and the ability to influence federal law and policy is where the real professionals operate.


Sorry, but there is an entire world outside of SGU. I've discussed CapHill, but as the industry truely goes global, the ability to represent the profession will be critical. Skywest JB and VA pilots are not Amish. Rather more like Native Americans who must adapt or be sequestered to the reservation.

It is not a choice in how you get compensated, how long your duty day can be, or what the reserve rules are, or as is the case at SkyWest, not having a choice in any of those things.

It can be, if the OO pilot so do want to.

 

[AirCobra]

Rez, you are the poster child for everything wrong with ALPA. You are always right. You know better than everyone. Everyone who disagrees with you is ________. [stupid, naive, brainwashed, etc...] I'd guess that you have single handedly turned more SkyWest pilots against ALPA with your FI ramblings than any anti union manager over there. Just like Tim Martins, Rez IS ALPA!

Please stop. You're not doing us any favors. Really.

Honest Rez, I have not changed my screen name to Box Office.

 

[CFIT]

Copy and valid.




You are missing a valid point....

As much as Skywest pilots look and act the part of professionals, they have no method to enforce it. Meaning they have no CBA and no ASAP program. OO pilots can talk the talk but they cannot walk the walk. Same with JB and VA pilots.

SkyWest Pilots have had an ASAP program in effect for nearly 3 years, it has been called a model of what can be doen to promote pilots and safety by the FAA director himself. AS far as a CBA, our is as established as much as anybody else's, managemnt can and will subdue the rules here and at any other place, ALPA or not. ASA had over 18,000 policy greivences dismissed by voting in their last contract. Calling JB,VA, and OO pilots unprofessional, is by and far a disgrace. But to be safe please tell all your ALPA bretheren to avoid our jumpseats, cause you it's just unsafe, right?

As the PIC I have been pushed by management to operate my jet counter to my professional instinct. However, I knew that with a CBA and ASAP that I would be protected. My CBA states that the PIC is the unquestioned authority on the aircraft. While the FARs also state that, and OO pilots might feel that is adequate protection... it is... when dealing with the FAA. However, your employment is something else... The FAA might be satisfied that you operated safely, but they do not care if you fly again and the Feds won't protect your paycheck.

You were pushed by your management? I thought you said your mighty ALPA shield stops all that. It's what have told us we would have if we joined your happy rim job club? You said all that stops with ALPA protection? ALPA doesn't care about me or my paycheck, it is nothing more than a business that needs income, you can't tell me I need ALPA more than it needs me when they spent over 6 million dollars on the last union drive, it's called return on investment, right?

In addition, Doctors and Lawyers have Associations to represent them on CapHill.



Again, it has to do with the ability to tell a manager no, who is pushing you as PIC to operate against your desire for safety. In the end, when push comes to shove, Skywest pilots cannot do that.

Conduct and image is one a part of professionalism, but backing it up with a CBA, ASAP and the ability to influence federal law and policy is where the real professionals operate.


Sorry, but there is an entire world outside of SGU. I've discussed CapHill, but as the industry truely goes global, the ability to represent the profession will be critical. Skywest JB and VA pilots are not Amish. Rather more like Native Americans who must adapt or be sequestered to the reservation.

It can be, if the OO pilot so do want to.

There's a world past Herndon too.

Bottom line Rez, you single handedly, have poisended your own well with your hate and negative diatribe torwards SkyWest, JB, Virgin and the Military, I suppose you can put SouthWest and American in there too. You have easily killed more support for you organization than you can imagine. Maybe direct your efforts to fixing you glee club and the presidents 500 thousand dollar a year plus salary and lifetime pension pay check or even 140k a year salary Jan the Journalist makes for his ad hoc piece on "Timmy is ALPA" disgrace. (has he been fired yet?)

There's a good reason nearly 3000 pilots overwhelmingly didn't vote in ALPA, because of people like you and the fact that you can't admit that ALPA has failed. It simply cannot represent the regional pilot and the legacy pilot, it's a conflict of interest, it's a big business with huge salaries thriving on it's past that overlooks today.

Rez, the milk has soured, putting back in the fridge isn't going to fix it. You have to throw it out, really.

 

[Ski Bum]

As much as Skywest pilots look and act the part of professionals, they have no method to enforce it. Meaning they have no CBA and no ASAP program. OO pilots can talk the talk but they cannot walk the walk. Same with JB and VA pilots.

Just a little tip...if you are trying to convince OO pilots to join ALPA, might I suggest calling 2900 potential members unprofesssional might not be the direction Herndon wants you to go. As a former ALPA member and a current SkyWest pilot, I can tell you that your last few statements about us not being professional are personally offensive and turning people away from the very organization you want them to join.

Your argument is that a union pilot and a non-union pilot who do everything identically results in the union pilot being a professional and the non-union pilot being unprofessional. We don't have a CBA, we don't have a voice on capitol hill and therefore we are unprofessional. Hogwash.

As the PIC I have been pushed by management to operate my jet counter to my professional instinct. However, I knew that with a CBA and ASAP that I would be protected. My CBA states that the PIC is the unquestioned authority on the aircraft. While the FARs also state that, and OO pilots might feel that is adequate protection... it is... when dealing with the FAA. However, your employment is something else... The FAA might be satisfied that you operated safely, but they do not care if you fly again and the Feds won't protect your paycheck.

Again, it has to do with the ability to tell a manager no, who is pushing you as PIC to operate against your desire for safety. In the end, when push comes to shove, Skywest pilots cannot do that.

You are talking about what happens after you make the decision. Professionalism is what occurs in leading up to and in making the decision. You should NEVER be making safety of flight decisions based upon a CBA. You are right that we don't have a CBA to protect us if management doesn't like our decision, but I will always make the tough call if I need to. Regardless of whether or not I am called onto the carpet to answer for it ...maybe I even lose my job. I am professional enough to make the right call even if I don't have a union to back me up. Things are a little tougher here at SkyWest because of the fact that we can't hide behind a CBA. We have to make the decisions on our own and sometimes your job might hang in the balance, but that doesn't mean we don't make the same decisions a union pilot would make. I can tell you that life would be easier and better with a union though, and I wish we had one.

 

[AEROSQUADRON69]

Look ...... They do NOT have you recite the "Creed". They just read it off and mention that the pilot profession does not have a "Creed".

In my class, most of us, rolled our eyes and doodled on on scratch pieces of paper.

You can leave the class. But miss out on the (5) hours of pay for being a "mandatory volunteer" on your day off.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SkyWest Pilots have had an ASAP program in effect for nearly 3 years, it has been called a model of what can be doen to promote pilots and safety by the FAA director himself. AS far as a CBA, our is as established as much as anybody else's, managemnt can and will subdue the rules here and at any other place, ALPA or not. ASA had over 18,000 policy greivences dismissed by voting in their last contract. Calling JB,VA, and OO pilots unprofessional, is by and far a disgrace. But to be safe please tell all your ALPA bretheren to avoid our jumpseats, cause you it's just unsafe, right?

Who is your union rep at the ASAP table? It is usually comprised of the company, union and FAA? Who is this pilot rep on the ASAP ERC?

I've listed why OO, JB and VA pilots are not professionals. They can't create and enforce their own CBA, code, work rules, and they don't have representation on CapHill, ICAO, etc...

Yes, it really is that simple...

You were pushed by your management? I thought you said your mighty ALPA shield stops all that.

Perhaps you have a comprehension problem. I said I was pushed but my CBA supported my PIC decision. Look, we've heard about the firings at OO without due process.

It's what have told us we would have if we joined your happy rim job club? You said all that stops with ALPA protection? ALPA doesn't care about me or my paycheck, it is nothing more than a business that needs income, you can't tell me I need ALPA more than it needs me when they spent over 6 million dollars on the last union drive, it's called return on investment, right?

Untrue... saying ALPA is a business sounds witty in the crewroom and cockpits but it simply isn't.....

As stated before OO pilots would gain more value than dues they would give. So what kind of business takes on an "asset" that doesn't produce revenue?

In addition as I already told you, many legacy pilots are questioning why they are supporting regionals financially. Knowing that, why would ALPA pursue OO of they are a politically liability?

There's a world past Herndon too.

Agreed. Again, I already told you, that world is CapHill. In addition, ICAO and the global market place are also the world in which the airline pilot profession functions and will be made or broken.

Bottom line Rez, you single handedly, have poisended your own well with your hate and negative diatribe torwards SkyWest, JB, Virgin and the Military, I suppose you can put SouthWest and American in there too. You have easily killed more support for you organization than you can imagine. Maybe direct your efforts to fixing you glee club and the presidents 500 thousand dollar a year plus salary and lifetime pension pay check or even 140k a year salary Jan the Journalist makes for his ad hoc piece on "Timmy is ALPA" disgrace. (has he been fired yet?)

Again... hating me is great for your denial. You have no voice, no representation, you are told what is your "creed". You have no way to enforce your PIC authority. Roger Cohen is your man and you are his boy.

There's a good reason nearly 3000 pilots overwhelmingly didn't vote in ALPA, because of people like you and the fact that you can't admit that ALPA has failed. It simply cannot represent the regional pilot and the legacy pilot, it's a conflict of interest, it's a big business with huge salaries thriving on it's past that overlooks today.

"3000" pilots voted down b/c they can get the milk for free. Glad you brought up regional representation. I am still waiting to hear your pragmatism on a regional pilots union. If it is such a great idea, then where is it? And what do you have to offer in terms of a budget?

Rez, the milk has soured, putting back in the fridge isn't going to fix it. You have to throw it out, really.

I'd adopt this mentality if I was a OO pilot. Autonomy and professionalism are not going to happen for years at OO, JB and VA, if at all. Somehow you have to justify your reality and hating ALPA is it. Which is interesting... if you've stayed clear of ALPA, why are you so defensive about being non union? All you've got is a pledge/creed and wage slave status.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just a little tip...if you are trying to convince OO pilots to join ALPA, might I suggest calling 2900 potential members unprofesssional might not be the direction Herndon wants you to go. As a former ALPA member and a current SkyWest pilot, I can tell you that your last few statements about us not being professional are personally offensive and turning people away from the very organization you want them to join.

I am not trying to convince 2900 pilots to do anything. OO is not coming to ALPA for a long time, if at all IMHO. Call Dave Bourne, he'll be happy to take your dues.

The problem is OO rejection of ALPA is offensive to me. That rejection is based upon an attitude and emotion of 'why buy the cow, the milk is free' and the Mesa/TSA pilots who came over to OO that are disillusioned with ALPA because of Orenstein and Hulas. Is ALPA responsible for JO/Hulas being tools? OO pilots are freeloaders. You are offended? Now you understand that everyday you offend pilots that work to make the profession better and OO pilots gain from it. So we're both offended. Fair?

Your argument is that a union pilot and a non-union pilot who do everything identically results in the union pilot being a professional and the non-union pilot being unprofessional. We don't have a CBA, we don't have a voice on capitol hill and therefore we are unprofessional. Hogwash.

Fine. You disagree.. but tell me why. Hogwash isn't a reason why. I have no doubt that OO pilots strive everyday to be and act professional. One attribute of professionalism is the public interest. How can the OO pilots put the public's interest first when management controls the operation and wants to put profit first?

With all due respect to OO pilots but 2900 pilots and creed are not going to stop a huge corporation who is a vendor to multinational, global corporations (DAL/UAL) whose primary function is to satisfy shareholders and CEO compensation packages. Seriously, can you reconcile this? Are you telling me that 2900 pilots many of them 20 something kids who have no clue are formidable force against Jerry who is DAL/UAL's stable pony?

You are talking about what happens after you make the decision. Professionalism is what occurs in leading up to and in making the decision.

Correct and that is my point. OO pilots don't make that decision. OO managers do. Anyone can fly a jet. The system is designed to accommodate the LCD. However, when the operation gets tricky that is when the tough decisions come out and so do the management minions, ready to push you to operate the jet for a few extra dollars. UAL/DAL want their regional jets flying and Jerry wants his money.

You should NEVER be making safety of flight decisions based upon a CBA.

I never said one should. What I said was, I make my own professional choices regardless of what some manager tool wants me to do because I know I've got a CBA to back me up and protect my employment.

You are right that we don't have a CBA to protect us if management doesn't like our decision, but I will always make the tough call if I need to.Regardless of whether or not I am called onto the carpet to answer for it ...maybe I even lose my job. I am professional enough to make the right call even if I don't have a union to back me up.

That is a great attitude if you are 20 something. However, I would think a parent and a spouse who has to pay student laons, bills and needs healthcare would think twice about standing up to the company who would fire him to make a point. Then if you have a termination on record, can you get hired again as a pilot. Will your student loans be for naught? It has happened at OO and it will again.

Things are a little tougher here at SkyWest because of the fact that we can't hide behind a CBA.

Hide? I never hid behind my CBA, rather I carried it with me and used it.

We have to make the decisions on our own and sometimes your job might hang in the balance, but that doesn't mean we don't make the same decisions a union pilot would make. I can tell you that life would be easier and better with a union though, and I wish we had one.

Fair enough. I wish OO pilots were part of the profession. It helps when everyone is on board when dealing with management (ATA/RAA) and govt.