For you ALPA bashers

[Dan Roman]

We (Hawaiian) recently signed our latest contract with substantial improvements. We never could have done it without ALPA. The help we got from them is far to numerous to list here. But plane and simple, we could not have done it on our own. In addition, the fact that Alaska recently made gains ahead of us and then their leadership was very forthcoming in helping us was quite beneficial. Our companies may compete, but beyound that we are all pilots with the same goals. Again, thanks to ALPA. (and thanks AK).
Also important to note, Hawaiian is doing well now. This has not always been the case. Over the years we have gone through 2 bankruptcies, had to many owners and management teams to remember. In fact, we began the de-regulation era competing with an airline that was started by ex Hawaiian execs, who got their money from Hawaiian and started up a non union airline charging $9.95 inter-island with the intent of putting us out of business. I could go on and on with the challenges made to Hawaiian and our contract. But the bottom line is, even in the tough times, we managed to hang on to a lot of what was important to us, including retirement, through some very lean years and shady management practices. Without ALPA, no way around it, we would be way worse off and a few execs probably would be way better off.

ALPA is not perfect, it's just a vehicle for pilots to try to do what is best for many as opposed to individuals trying to help themselves.

 

[Esprit]

ALPA is the best!


ESPRIT

 

[Dan Roman]

opps, I just reread my post and I made a glaring omision, not only did we benefit from Alaska, our ALPA brothers at Delta were a major help. Mahalo!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

You are Welcome and congrats....

I wish we could have kept our pension.....but crying over spilled milk isn't worth the time.

 

[Whine Lover]

"...not only did we benefit from Alaska, our ALPA brothers at Delta were a major help."

Well, let's not forget your ALPA brothers at ATA and Aloha, without the failures of which... HAL would not have had such a banner few years and subsequently been in the position to afford you the gains that you have made.

No bitterness here, glad to see you guys are doing well...But let's not forget the fallen.


YKMKR

 

[turbodriver]

We (Hawaiian) recently signed our latest contract with substantial improvements. We never could have done it without ALPA. The help we got from them is far to numerous to list here. But plane and simple, we could not have done it on our own. In addition, the fact that Alaska recently made gains ahead of us and then their leadership was very forthcoming in helping us was quite beneficial. Our companies may compete, but beyound that we are all pilots with the same goals. Again, thanks to ALPA. (and thanks AK).
Also important to note, Hawaiian is doing well now. This has not always been the case. Over the years we have gone through 2 bankruptcies, had to many owners and management teams to remember. In fact, we began the de-regulation era competing with an airline that was started by ex Hawaiian execs, who got their money from Hawaiian and started up a non union airline charging $9.95 inter-island with the intent of putting us out of business. I could go on and on with the challenges made to Hawaiian and our contract. But the bottom line is, even in the tough times, we managed to hang on to a lot of what was important to us, including retirement, through some very lean years and shady management practices. Without ALPA, no way around it, we would be way worse off and a few execs probably would be way better off.

ALPA is not perfect, it's just a vehicle for pilots to try to do what is best for many as opposed to individuals trying to help themselves.

I bet ALPA or our "MEC" didn't bother to tell you that those "gains" at Alaska Airlines were on the backs of the 106 of us that are furloughed that they threw under the bus by not seeing our furlough grievance through to the end. Also, how much did the Kasher award take away versus how much you got back with last year's contract? Still a pretty big net loss if I'm not mistaken. And ALPA is proud of that?!?! That's why management treats us the way they do. They know pilot unions are full of pu$$ies who won't do what's necessary to fight and get back what was lost. Regardless of the fact the the company made a 88 million profit last year. Hell,I'd rather be a NY transit worker, at least their union will fight......

I still haven't forgotten this, even though most of you have.....

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

United Airlines Pilots Awarded $44 Million in Retirement Class Action

Chicago, IL: Airline pilots for United Airlines have won a $44 million settlement, ending their three-year lawsuit against the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) International.

The lawsuit was brought by a group of senior pilots who objected to the way in which the ALPA handled the split up of retirement payments under United Airline's recent bankruptcy organization. The lawsuit related specifically to the allocation of pension and retirement benefits to junior pilots at the expense of senior pilots, who had accrued considerable benefits resulting from more years of service and higher salaries.

Approximately 2,200 pilots are represented in the class action, and after legal fees are deducted from the settlement, the total sum split between them will be $28 million.

JAN-29-10: United pilots win $44 million union retirement suit [CHICAGO TRIBUNE: BUSINESS]

Where are your dues going?

 

[mamba20]

I'd like to thank ALPA for age 65 and screwing over the younger guys since its inception. Yay ALPA!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Hell,I'd rather be a NY transit worker, at least their union will fight......

http://www.mta.info/mta/employment

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

United Airlines Pilots Awarded $44 Million in Retirement Class Action

Chicago, IL: Airline pilots for United Airlines have won a $44 million settlement, ending their three-year lawsuit against the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) International.

The lawsuit was brought by a group of senior pilots who objected to the way in which the ALPA handled the split up of retirement payments under United Airline's recent bankruptcy organization. The lawsuit related specifically to the allocation of pension and retirement benefits to junior pilots at the expense of senior pilots, who had accrued considerable benefits resulting from more years of service and higher salaries.

Approximately 2,200 pilots are represented in the class action, and after legal fees are deducted from the settlement, the total sum split between them will be $28 million.

JAN-29-10: United pilots win $44 million union retirement suit [CHICAGO TRIBUNE: BUSINESS]

Where are your dues going?

Just keep voting no Blue and see what that gets you.....

Sure you can laugh and let ALPA plow the way for better rules since you work the FARs. No Contract=no protection. Maybe a Republic style merger is in your future Hero!!

I'm sure the senators and goverment agencies take a Jetblue pilots input to the bank when issues like Fight-time duty time come up or low-time pilot issues...

If jerkhole postings were a contest, you'd win hands down!!

 

[aewanabe]

Bill, ignore Blue. He has his Bus captain seat and believes Dave Barger will always take care of him, so F the rest of us. Never mind our market cap is completely stagnant and the 'jet-blue experience' is being surpassed by Virgin, CO, and even DL to some extent. (The preceeding statement is NA when competing routes are flown by 20-yr-old CRJs btw....). The ALPA drive is slowly gaining steam here.

 

[mamba20]

Go in house as far as unions go. ALPA DOES NOT have your best interests in mind. All they see is more money for. . . . . . . you guessed it! ALPA National's own management.

 

[Whataburger]

New bag sticker: "Mahalo, Prater loves you"

 

[mamba20]

Just keep voting no Blue and see what that gets you.....

Sure you can laugh and let ALPA plow the way for better rules since you work the FARs. No Contract=no protection. Maybe a Republic style merger is in your future Hero!!

I'm sure the senators and goverment agencies take a Jetblue pilots input to the bank when issues like Fight-time duty time come up or low-time pilot issues...

If jerkhole postings were a contest, you'd win hands down!!

Better work rules? Yeah that has worked well here at CAL. ALPA sold us our current POS which is no better then the FARS.

 

[Floatplane]

Better work rules? Yeah that has worked well here at CAL. ALPA sold us our current POS which is no better then the FARS.

I don't think it was ALPA, it was your own MEC!

 

[Fins Up]

It's interesting that a good contract is attributed to ALPA and a bad one is attributed to the MEC.

 

[flyboyike]

New bag sticker: "Mahalo, Prater loves you"

Better yet "Mahalo, Prater, my ku'uipo"

 

[mamba20]

I don't think it was ALPA, it was your own MEC!

Thats true, BUT ALPA signed off on it. So much for "we are ALPA" They don't listen to us one bit. We are merely a cash machine for them. IF ALPA screws us on this next contract that not only will I do everything in my power to ensure ALPA is history for CAL I'll also make sure that my dues at the end of the year are donated to charity rather then to Praters pay check.

I'm not anti-union, not even anti-ALPA. However ALPA totes itself as being the end all, be all of of the professional pilot and working without rest to further my career. I have yet to see that. What I do see, is ALPA voting for the age 65 change (against what the majority of its pilots wanted) and generally not concerning itself with junior pilots. I am tired of my "elected" union officials worrying only about themseleves and the senior pilots at CAL. The very senior pilots that by all rights shouldn't be here at all. Time will tell I guess. I do wear my ALPA pin, but until I see ALPA working for me instead of taking $150.00 per month of my pay check and sending me a stupid magazine I will continue to wear my ALPA pin upside down.

 

[PCL_128]

Go in house as far as unions go.

Been there, done that. It's a disaster. ALPA isn't perfect, but if you elect good people at the local level, then you'll do far better with ALPA than you'll ever be able to do "in house."

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Bill, ignore Blue. He has his Bus captain seat and believes Dave Barger will always take care of him, so F the rest of us. Never mind our market cap is completely stagnant and the 'jet-blue experience' is being surpassed by Virgin, CO, and even DL to some extent. (The preceeding statement is NA when competing routes are flown by 20-yr-old CRJs btw....). The ALPA drive is slowly gaining steam here.

Just who do you think a union is going to favor? The senior guys or the junior ones? So, in fact, if I were looking after my own bum, maybe I would be pushing for that ever so coveted union pin... BTW, we have industry-leading 190 pay now...Isn't Airtran still looking for a contract after 5 years? Ask a CAL pilot how satisfied they are with their contracts. Do they get pay-protected for precancelled flights? How good are the paychecks and benefits at Spirit and Allegiant? How many are being furloughed at UPS? I could go on...

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

(The preceeding statement is NA when competing routes are flown by 20-yr-old CRJs btw....)

No truer words spoken....I agree...RJ's Suck (so does MESA....I couldn't resist)!!

Good luck with any union drive even if it's not ALPA....you may need representation sooner than later while Blue thinks his bed is lined with Barger's promises, he's really just turning tricks for him.......

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Just who do you think a union is going to favor? The senior guys or the junior ones? So, in fact, if I were looking after my own bum, maybe I would be pushing for that ever so coveted union pin... BTW, we have industry-leading 190 pay now...Isn't Airtran still looking for a contract after 5 years? Ask a CAL pilot how satisfied they are with their contracts. Do they get pay-protected for precancelled flights? How good are the paychecks and benefits at Spirit and Allegiant? How many are being furloughed at UPS? I could go on...

Industry leading 190 pay??? YGBSM?!?!? That's like bragging about being the best football team in Siberia!!! Who gives a $hit? you and Usair fly them, and now the tools at Republic are.

Let's see....worst economy since the twenties. Steepest dropoff of pax revenue since 9/11. No Credit available for anybody....people AND corporations. Maybe these are the reasons the contracts have been drug out by management. I would rather wake up every morning knowing my work rules than letting some 8 dollar an hour phone jockey scheduler dictate them to me.....

Good Luck Blue......pull up the ladder cuz it's all about you!!!

 

[Dizel8]

BTW, we have industry-leading 190 pay now...

What else do we have that is industry leading, or for that matter, that is even PSIA?

This company has been foot dragging for months on any other changes, heck, I would argue they have been foot dragging for years.

I would almost argue, that the jetblue pilots would have been better off financially had we been working under the AAI contract as opposed to our wonderfull PEA. From just a quick read, I can tell, their pay was higher, up untill only recently, the retirement vehicle was better!

As for how long it has taken AAI, is that due to the union or is it due to the fact, that to a company, the longer they drag out negotaitions, the more money they save. You must be clueless if you don't get that fact.

As for furloughs, since the union doesn't hire, it can't fire. Manning decisions are made by the company, not by the union.

Not to be harsh, but you really have to open your eyes and try to understand the game, sadly, you appear to believe in management rhetoric!

 

[Dan Roman]

Just who do you think a union is going to favor? The senior guys or the junior ones? So, in fact, if I were looking after my own bum, maybe I would be pushing for that ever so coveted union pin... BTW, we have industry-leading 190 pay now...Isn't Airtran still looking for a contract after 5 years? Ask a CAL pilot how satisfied they are with their contracts. Do they get pay-protected for precancelled flights? How good are the paychecks and benefits at Spirit and Allegiant? How many are being furloughed at UPS? I could go on...

Blue, let me start out that I am not bashing you or Jet Blue, I think it's funny that no one seems to want to acknowledge the fact that Jet Blue is the only airline that doesn't outsource RJ flying. You guys did that right. But I don't think your comparisons hold water. Every airline is different and goes through many business cycles and many changes in management teams. The airlines you mentioned are at a diferent stage, but they would all be even worse off without ALPA. It was ALPA that got CO their greatest gains since Lorenzo raped them. Any problems they have now would be far worse without ALPA. I don't think you believe if Air Tran got rid of ALPA their CEO would give them a raise. He would, of course unilaterely cut their pay and benefits and increase the companies profits and management bonus's. Seems to me Jet Blue is doing pretty good right now. The one thing for sure is that will change at some point. It may do even better and it will have hard times at some point. Might be in 5 years or it might be in 15, but your's and everyone else's career there would be better off if you were ALPA and had a proactive pilot group like you appear to have. ALPA is an excellent vehicle for protecting the integrity of the profession through good times and bad. Of course it's not perfect, but without a union you will, at some point wish you had one. I was at People Express for a couple years. At one point everyone there thought management had a better plan and would take care of them. It started out that way too, with great profit sharing and stock options. It went south real fast. Trying the non-union, let's all work together for the sake of all our futures doesn't last, never has and never will. Even SWA realizes that. They would be be making way less if they had stayed non union. It's a shame we need unions in this country, but then it's an even bigger shame we have so many corporate execs that are so greedy and sadly enough there are some pretty incompetent ones too. One's that will make mistakes and will leave the employees holding the bag while they leave with a bonus in pocket and go to another airline. There are good and bad managers out there, you will encounter both, but again,a union can protect you from the potentially devastating effect of stupid management decisions. Without unions the gap between the workers and top management would be far greater than the already obscene level we have in this country.

 

[Dan Roman]

OK I got long winded, but all those airlines you mentioned would be far worse of if they did not not have ALPA trying to protect them. In fact, if our industry never had ALPA we would ALL (including Jet Blue) be working for less and the airlines would be less safe than they are now had management not had the benefit of someone looking out for something other than just increasing the bottom line.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dan-

Good posts but I am afraid that you are singing to the wrong choir.... Trying to convince the haters is like trying to tell a Grand Dragon that blacks are all right.

Unions including ALPA are simply expected to provide a good contract, etc. For example, when a pax buys a ticket on your airline they expect good pilots. (Hence the Colgan BUF fiasco). Your post would be akin to a Hawaiian Capt coming out of the cockpit looking for praise and accolades for safely flying pax from HNL to LAX. The pax paid for and expect good airmanship.

For comedic value how about a Capt coming out of the flightdeck like a football player who just scored a TD doing a chicken dance and spiking his hat or Jepps. "Yeah, in your face! How do you like me now! Not in our house!!!"

Since ALPA is expected to provide a good contract, when they do, in your case, there is no cause for recognition. Expectations were simply met. When they do not, then all hell breaks loose, despite reality.

The problem with the haters is they operate on a platform of ignorance and irresponsibility. They refuse to get educated on the issues and leave the ownership of their profession to others. What is the difference between one union pilot who steps up to the plate to volunteer and another who does nothing but sneer, chide and demand entitlement?


Nonetheless, I am glad your pilot group has a good CBA. Enjoy it, protect it.

 

[Turtle21]

It's interesting that a good contract is attributed to ALPA and a bad one is attributed to the MEC.

That is the ALPA way! They get the glory, we get the guilt. And they are comfy wit dat. Maybe Rez and PC can jump in here and tell us how things will be better for us if we just get involved. I agree.. vote... VOTE ALPO OFF THE PROPERTY! We did.

 

[Dan Roman]

That is the ALPA way! They get the glory, we get the guilt. And they are comfy wit dat. Maybe Rez and PC can jump in here and tell us how things will be better for us if we just get involved. I agree.. vote... VOTE ALPO OFF THE PROPERTY! We did.

So how's that USAPy thingy thing working out? Sorry, I could resist after your other post.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan-

Trying to convince the haters is like trying to tell a Grand Dragon that blacks are all right.

.

True, my feeling is the inflexible haters are a small majority and most people are open minded and in fact do listen to and are interested in various viewpoints. I think a lot of people read, but don't post.
I recently saw a saying that is applicable to so many things and it sums up the haters perfectly.

"Perception isn't how things are, it's how you are"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

True, my feeling is the inflexible haters are a small majority and most people are open minded and in fact do listen to and are interested in various viewpoints. I think a lot of people read, but don't post.
I recently saw a saying that is applicable to so many things and it sums up the haters perfectly.

"Perception isn't how things are, it's how you are"

The haters are a small minority, however, for the same reason you (and I) appeal to 'most people who are open minded', the haters use FI and flightdecks (a captive audience) to validate their illogical hatred by trying to influence others. To be fair, you did goad the haters with the thread title, whereas the thread title could have stated 'ALPA helps HAL pilots gain new CBA' or the like.

Without a doubt, it is a weak character that uses a moniker message board to spread hate and populist drivel.... but some are attracted to it. Those who have allowed themselves to be owned by puerile wit and logical fallacies easily gravitate to the haters finding value in what they say..... In the end it allows them shun responsibility and ownership not only for their own lives and career but the profession as well....