Colgan 3407 Findings

[WayBack]

A camera in the cockpit would have made it easier for the investigators to see what the CA and FO were doing to not catch the airspeed decaying.

Go ahead about put video cameras in the cockpit.
2 things will happen. 1. Newspapers or hats will be placed over the lens.
2. They will air videos on the news of pilots sleeping, reading the newspaper, picking their noses and flying in the nude.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Go ahead about put video cameras in the cockpit.
2 things will happen. 1. Newspapers or hats will be placed over the lens.
2. They will air videos on the news of pilots sleeping, reading the newspaper, picking their noses and flying in the nude.

Don't mind CX...he's FI's version of the kid in the back of the short bus who's licking the window.

 

[dh82dvr]

a camera in the cockpit would be ok so long as it was located in such a way that I could hang my hat on it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If we don't get serious about "policing" our own, then we will all suffer....The union can't have it both ways.....Either we stop protecting those who need to find something else to do...or we ALL suffer the consequences and subject ourselves to some political BS....I say we start policing our own and raise the standards...

 

[AceCrackshot]

Neither should have been in the cockpit & slacker management failed to spend the $$$ to make sure of the proper training and the removal of unfit, unqualified crews. End result a tragic loss.

+1. Here's the answer.

This NTSB "investigation" will remembered in the same vein as the "Lover's spat" conclusion for the COS UA 737 rudder-hard-over accident.

That vein is in shame.

The FAA skates, Colgan skates, and the NTSB raises its hands and says, "Don't worry Mr. and Mrs. America, regional airlines are safe!"

 

[SEVEN]

+1. Here's the answer.

This NTSB "investigation" will remembered in the same vein as the "Lover's spat" conclusion for the COS UA 737 rudder-hard-over accident.

That vein is in shame.

The FAA skates, Colgan skates, and the NTSB raises its hands and says, "Don't worry Mr. and Mrs. America, regional airlines are safe!"

Bingo!

 

[WayBack]

+1. Here's the answer.

This NTSB "investigation" will remembered in the same vein as the "Lover's spat" conclusion for the COS UA 737 rudder-hard-over accident.

That vein is in shame.

The FAA skates, Colgan skates, and the NTSB raises its hands and says, "Don't worry Mr. and Mrs. America, regional airlines are safe!"

While I agree with you that they didn't belong in the cockpit, ALPA should have made sure these two were never in the cockpit.
Since ALPA is all about safety, they should have made sure they weren't hired. Now I know ALPA wasn't on the property at the time, but if ALPA is as serious about making the whole aviation industry safer for everyone, well they should have stepped in and made sure Colgan was hiring competent pilots.
Instead ALPA is more worried about the collection of dues, and having unsafe pilots in the cockpit would bankrupt the Union.

 

[AceCrackshot]

While I agree with you that they didn't belong in the cockpit, ALPA should have made sure these two were never in the cockpit.
Since ALPA is all about safety, they should have made sure they weren't hired. Now I know ALPA wasn't on the property at the time, but if ALPA is as serious about making the whole aviation industry safer for everyone, well they should have stepped in and made sure Colgan was hiring competent pilots.
Instead ALPA is more worried about the collection of dues, and having unsafe pilots in the cockpit would bankrupt the Union.

ALPA, for all of its faults, cannot run the airline. The way that Colgan integrated the Q400 into its fleet, trained (or more properly didn't train)the pilots, hired pilots, and managed (or more properly, mismanaged) the Q400 in day to day operations, helped to cause this accident. Period.

ALPA cannot mandate training, manuals, and qualifications. These are the job of the management team, with oversight from the FAA.

While in a perfect world, ALPA would raise these issues with airline, or if that fails, raises them with the media, they are treading on some thin ice if management decides to push back, which a management team with Colgan's reputation most certainly would.

Accident investigations are about assigning blame to the most judgement-proof involved party, at this point. Regarding safety, its rapidily approaching every man for himself.

 

[WayBack]

ALPA, for all of its faults, cannot run the airline. The way that Colgan integrated the Q400 into its fleet, trained (or more properly didn't train)the pilots, hired pilots, and managed (or more properly, mismanaged) the Q400 in day to day operations, helped to cause this accident. Period.

ALPA cannot mandate training, manuals, and qualifications. These are the job of the management team, with oversight from the FAA.

While in a perfect world, ALPA would raise these issues with airline, or if that fails, raises them with the media, they are treading on some thin ice if management decides to push back, which a management team with Colgan's reputation most certainly would.

Accident investigations are about assigning blame to the most judgement-proof involved party, at this point. Regarding safety, its rapidily approaching every man for himself.

Don't get me wrong, I complete agree and understand what you're saying.
But in recent threads, there have been some ALPA chest thumpers who think that ALPA's sole purpose is safety and that they have made the whole aviation community safer (91,135,121) single handedly.
They also say ALPA has the power to do anything they want. They can make anything happen, they get what they want because they're so powerful.

So, what I am saying is more in a response to what those guys think of ALPA.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Neither should have been in the cockpit & slacker management failed to spend the $$$ to make sure of the proper training and the removal of unfit, unqualified crews. End result a tragic loss.

Would the outcome be different if both crew members were paid a salary with which they could afford to put themselves up in a hotel?

 

[Fubijaakr]

wayback,

I know you hate ALPA, but the fact is ALPA had been on the property at Colgan less than a month when the accident happened. How could ALPA have kept them out of the flight deck?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They also say ALPA has the power to do anything they want. They can make anything happen, they get what they want because they're so powerful.

So, what I am saying is more in a response to what those guys think of ALPA.

As a former ALPA Safety Chair, I've never said that, and I don't know of one that would. Maybe it's time to ignore the riffraff around here.

Maybe a good Pro-Stands could have prevented this type of accident if the captain was such a rotten PIC.

Everyone on here talks about flying with Capt X or FO X, and what a rotten pilot they are. But they probably never call their Pro-Stands team and get that pilot some help.

[/ramble]

 

[CFI2766]

If we don't get serious about "policing" our own, then we will all suffer....The union can't have it both ways.....Either we stop protecting those who need to find something else to do...or we ALL suffer the consequences and subject ourselves to some political BS....I say we start policing our own and raise the standards...

Are you saying that you would prefer an increase in dues to give ALPA a Check Airman role at each property?


Are you saying that you personally should be the judge of flying skills of line flying pilots?


What are you saying here?

 

[CFI2766]

While I agree with you that they didn't belong in the cockpit, ALPA should have made sure these two were never in the cockpit.



How precisely would ALPA have prevented this from happening with less than a month on property?

I think I agree with you that ALPA isn't perfect, but I'm not following you on your assertion that this accident can be attributed to Alpa.

 

[airplane wizard]

Would the outcome be different if both crew members were paid a salary with which they could afford to put themselves up in a hotel?

The same...the size of the paycheck does not affect basic aerodynamics.