Colgan 3407 Findings

[kmox29]

The FAA skates...

I don't think the FAA "skated":

39. The current Federal Aviation Administration surveillance standards for oversight at air carriers undergoing rapid growth and increased complexity of operations do not guarantee that any challenges encountered by the carriers as a result of these changes will be appropriately mitigated.

41. The viability of flight operational quality assurance programs depends on the confidentiality of the data, which would currently not be guaranteed if operators were required to implement these programs and required to share the data with the Federal Aviation Administration.

Granted, the FAA didn't carry the burden of responsibility in the NTSB's final report (the Captain did), but how much should the FAA bear in this accident?

 

[WayBack]

wayback,

I know you hate ALPA, but the fact is ALPA had been on the property at Colgan less than a month when the accident happened. How could ALPA have kept them out of the flight deck?

I explained it before in another post on this thread, but I'll say it again.
There have ALPA chest thumpers on here, saying that ALPA's sole mission is safety, and that all of the aviation industry (General and Airline Aviation) have benefited from ALPA creating everything that has made the industry safer. No one else had there hand in it, just ALPA. They fixed it all with the wave of a wand.
So if ALPA is about making every thing safer, even for the non-ALPA pilots/carriers, they should have been active in making sure Colgan's pilots are competent safe pilots. I know ALPA doesn't hire, but maybe this is a arena they should take over, since they want safer pilots.
They also failed to inform Colgan's training department, that is was substandard.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I explained it before in another post on this thread, but I'll say it again.
There have ALPA chest thumpers on here, saying that ALPA's sole mission is safety, and that all of the aviation industry (General and Airline Aviation) have benefited from ALPA creating everything that has made the industry safer. No one else had there hand in it, just ALPA. They fixed it all with the wave of a wand.

Who said that and where?

So if ALPA is about making every thing safer, even for the non-ALPA pilots/carriers, they should have been active in making sure Colgan's pilots are competent safe pilots. I know ALPA doesn't hire, but maybe this is a arena they should take over, since they want safer pilots.

Under what authority should they do this?

They also failed to inform Colgan's training department, that is was substandard.

How would ALPA have done that? They were voted onto the property in DEC and the accident was in FEB. Did they even have a Safety Committee at that point? A Training Committee?

 

[CopilotDoug]

The same...the size of the paycheck does not affect basic aerodynamics.

Fatigue was determined to be factor. It has a direct bearing on the outcome if they would have had better quality rest.

 

[WayBack]

Who said that and where?

Just search the majority of these threads. I'm not doing the search for you.

Under what authority should they do this?

How would ALPA have done that? They were voted onto the property in DEC and the accident was in FEB. Did they even have a Safety Committee at that point? A Training Committee?

Sorry, It's been a while since I sat in a part 121 crew room. I have forgotten how seriously some pilots take themselves, and how they have no sense of humor, along with no ability to detect sarcasm.
From here on out, I will post nothing but serious, positive threads and do my best to promote the goodness in ALPA.

 

[aewanabe]

Just curious, did any of you actually bother to read any of the NTSB docket other than the CVR recordings?

I fully agree that CA Renslow had a shoddy start to his career with GIA and some training difficulties; to a man, though, his FOs called him a good, conscientious CA who included them in decision making and acknowledged his inexperience in the plane.

FO Shaw was far more experienced than the average Colgan new-hire, and was reported as very sharp by her Captains and check airmen who were in position to evaluate her. She even mentioned not being in a rush to upgrade, as she wanted more experience before making the decisions in the left seat? How many of you are mature enough to make the same self-analysis?

The fact is, they were more qualified and probably more professional than a whole slew of you keyboard commandos, right up until the accident chain reached them and they weren't worthy to the moment. Make no mistake, they f-ed up and paid with their lives, as well as the lives of 48 others. But there were gaps in the system that helped them fail.

Having a bunch of so-called professional aviators dancing on their graves, rather than soberly recognizing that it really COULD happen to you, is pathetic.

 

[WayBack]

I fully agree that CA Renslow had a shoddy start to his career with GIA and some training difficulties; to a man, though, his FOs called him a good, conscientious CA who included them in decision making and acknowledged his inexperience in the plane.

Did you fly with him? I know two former Colgan captains who had Renslow as an FO. One said that he had to take the controls MULTIPLE times because Marvin had a tendency to get very close to stalling the airplane during climb and landing configuration.
Both said that they noticed Renslow has a problem keeping his scan, often not paying attention to airspeed. Even being assigned a speed, he had problems maintaining that speed.

FO Shaw was far more experienced than the average Colgan new-hire, and was reported as very sharp by her Captains and check airmen who were in position to evaluate her. She even mentioned not being in a rush to upgrade, as she wanted more experience before making the decisions in the left seat? How many of you are mature enough to make the same self-analysis?

I'm not saying she wasn't qualified, but how often do you hear others reveal what they really thought of a person who died? People don't say their true feelings about the dead because they think others will frown upon it, and they also think it will cause trouble in their life. Taboo.
Of course instructors and check airman are going to say she was sharp and qualified. You expect a check airman to say "She sucked and was under qualified in the cockpit, but I passed her anyway!".
Also, she said she didn't want to rush to upgrade so she could gain more experience, that is true. But she also said she didn't know anything about icing, and didn't want to be incharge to make those types of decisions. I give her credit for her acknowledging her weaknesses.

Having a bunch of so-called professional aviators dancing on their graves, rather than soberly recognizing that it really COULD happen to you, is pathetic.

This is why people speak highly of the deceased. I know I am going to get attacked for what I said above.
But how is it "dancing on their graves" when someone points out their mistakes, their flaws and even quoting what they said in the cockpit?
It's not, dancing on ones grave would be one who is happy they are dead, and then gloating about about it. I have seen some jackass comments on here about the crew, but never seen anyone dancing on their graves.
People need to quit being so sensitive.

 

[aewanabe]

I have no personal knowledge of CA Renslow or FO Shaw's abilities; I agree some of those deposed might have been ill-disposed to speak poorly of the recently deceased. But if Renslow flew with people who thought he was such a weak stick, did anyone do anything? Talk to Flight Standards, the CP, or Pro Stans? Honestly, I've read the depositions of several other pilot-error crashes (a few of the USAir incidents in the late 80s and early 90s, e.g.); in those cases the tone much more clearly indicated skepticism of the crew's abilities.

I didn't take pointing out the errors as dancing on their graves, but there have been plenty of sardonic comments from folks who seem to believe the mistakes are beneath them. Those guys (and gals?) seem most likely to repeat the same mistakes.

Ultimately, the two of them made a basic mistake, failed to rectify it, and died for it. They were the wrong people in that cockpit at that time. My take on the CVR comments and the comments from their peers indicated more maturity and self-awareness than they've been credited with. In our rush to say "they f-d up" (and make no mistake, they did), we tend to ignore what we can learn about ourselves as aviators. Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Just search the majority of these threads. I'm not doing the search for you.




Sorry, It's been a while since I sat in a part 121 crew room. I have forgotten how seriously some pilots take themselves, and how they have no sense of humor, along with no ability to detect sarcasm.
From here on out, I will post nothing but serious, positive threads and do my best to promote the goodness in ALPA.

So what you're saying is you have nothing to back up what you're saying, and when called out, you say you were joking.

You don't like ALPA. We get it.

 

[WayBack]

So what you're saying is you have nothing to back up what you're saying, and when called out, you say you were joking.

You don't like ALPA. We get it.

No, what I am saying is mocking those guys I am referring to, and baiting them because they get all huffy-puffy over anyone pointing out ALPA's flaws.
How do you back up something that isn't true. Sorry if you read what myself and others say on FI.com, and believe it all. FYI, most of FI.com all BS stories, just a bunch of bickering between regional guys.
Now I'm sorry if this has burst your bubble, but I'd hate to see you go through life, referring to FI.com for actual, factual and honest information.

You're correct, I don't like ALPA. But do to TOS, you don't get how much I really don't like ALPA.

 

[chignutsak]

...My take on the CVR comments and the comments from their peers indicated more maturity and self-awareness than they've been credited with...

I read the CVR transcript over and over. Regarding sterile cockpit conversation, nothing on it could be construed to be anything more than what occurs on the average airline flight deck. I have seen better sterile discipline and I have seen worse, at my airline and while jumping on others. THAT part of it, vis-a-vis this investigation, has been overplayed, IMO. Anyone here who calls them out for this is a hypocrite. We have all violated it.

 

[CFI2766]

I have no personal knowledge of CA Renslow or FO Shaw's abilities; I agree some of those deposed might have been ill-disposed to speak poorly of the recently deceased. But if Renslow flew with people who thought he was such a weak stick, did anyone do anything? Talk to Flight Standards, the CP, or Pro Stans? Honestly, I've read the depositions of several other pilot-error crashes (a few of the USAir incidents in the late 80s and early 90s, e.g.); in those cases the tone much more clearly indicated skepticism of the crew's abilities.

I didn't take pointing out the errors as dancing on their graves, but there have been plenty of sardonic comments from folks who seem to believe the mistakes are beneath them. Those guys (and gals?) seem most likely to repeat the same mistakes.

Ultimately, the two of them made a basic mistake, failed to rectify it, and died for it. They were the wrong people in that cockpit at that time. My take on the CVR comments and the comments from their peers indicated more maturity and self-awareness than they've been credited with. In our rush to say "they f-d up" (and make no mistake, they did), we tend to ignore what we can learn about ourselves as aviators. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Excellent summary.

 

[rtmcfi]

You're correct, I don't like ALPA. But do to TOS, you don't get how much I really don't like ALPA.

Your inability to let go of ALPA for even a little while is disturbing. You appear have symptoms of Autism, or Touretts, or some other disorder. You really are doing yourself and your viewpoints a disservice. It comes across as weird and childish. How many of your last 50 posts regard ALPA directly, or allude to ALPA? Relax or you may need ALPA aeromedical to get your medical back. Seriously.....

 

[say again]

Fatigue was determined to be factor. It has a direct bearing on the outcome if they would have had better quality rest.

While fatigue may have been a factor, I don't believe its an excuse for not knowing how to recover from a stall. The only way they should have not noticed the decreasing speed is if they were sleeping. It doesn't take much to notice a decreasing speed and to add a little power. The effed up royally and never should have been in the cockpit. They were alert enough to be talking, laughing, etc. A little situational awareness would've prevented this.

 

[WayBack]

It comes across as weird and childish. How many of your last 50 posts regard ALPA directly, or allude to ALPA?

You think that's weird and childish? Weird and childish would be me sitting in the dark corner of the crew room, wearing nothing but a really tight ALPA shirt, black socks and a cowboy hat...while I try to get guys to join ALPA.

I was actually thinking about that the other day. I bet every single post of mine contains anti-ALPA rhetoric. Even if the thread is about politics, I'll find a way to include ALPA.
But I am a man on a mission. And it seems to be working, because PFT128 is telling others to block me and some other guys.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[WayBack]

While fatigue may have been a factor, I don't believe its an excuse for not knowing how to recover from a stall. The only way they should have not noticed the decreasing speed is if they were sleeping.

You must be that one guy everyone is talking about. You're so senior that you fly nothing but 9am-5am trips.
But try to remember back to the days of how tired you were at the some of your long days. You think if you were completely exhausted at the end of the long day, it couldn't happen to you?
Now I'm not excusing them from what happened, but it was bound to happen to someone.
If they were really fatigued they should have called in fatigued. But neither of them had a crash pad in base, and bed and hot shower probably sounded great. Hey, what the hell, it's only one short leg.
If this is what their thoughts we're, it's not the first time and they weren't the only crew with the same mindset that night. It happens everyday and every night.

 

[rtmcfi]

You think that's weird and childish? Weird and childish would be me sitting in the dark corner of the crew room, wearing nothing but a really tight ALPA shirt, black socks and a cowboy hat...while I try to get guys to join ALPA.

Now that is funny, I don't care where you stand on ALPA.

That said, your rhetoric may well be geting others to ignore you.

 

[airplane wizard]

Not only did they not notice the decreasing airspeed, they overrode the safety device designed to prevent a stall. The excuse being..."we're not paid enough"

 

[WayBack]

That said, your rhetoric may well be geting others to ignore you.

You'd think so right? But I have been on here for a couple years, fishing with worst fake bait possible. And the biggest fish keep biting. This pond is loaded!

 

[say again]

You must be that one guy everyone is talking about. You're so senior that you fly nothing but 9am-5am trips.
But try to remember back to the days of how tired you were at the some of your long days. You think if you were completely exhausted at the end of the long day, it couldn't happen to you?
Now I'm not excusing them from what happened, but it was bound to happen to someone.
If they were really fatigued they should have called in fatigued. But neither of them had a crash pad in base, and bed and hot shower probably sounded great. Hey, what the hell, it's only one short leg.
If this is what their thoughts we're, it's not the first time and they weren't the only crew with the same mindset that night. It happens everyday and every night.

No longer an airline guy, and wasn't very senior when I was. I know about fatigue issues, and I never said it couldn't happen to me. I believe you missed my point.

 

[WayBack]

No longer an airline guy, and wasn't very senior when I was. I know about fatigue issues, and I never said it couldn't happen to me. I believe you missed my point.

I'm sorry, I miss read your post. It back fired on me, seeing how I was trying to be funny, but the joke is on me.
Sorry again. I typed that during a rough time in my life, someone had pointed out to me that I will no longer be a professional pilot, as long as I am not an ALPA pilot. It was quite the blow to my ego, but then I learned that since I still get the ALPA magazine even though I am not paying dues, I am a semi-professional pilot. Only because I am able to read about the ALPA wisdom every month.
Now I love myself again, and if I can love me, I can love others as well.
I am sorry for my previous behaviors. I will be a better man and behave like a semi professional pilots for the remainder of my time.

Bless you all!

 

[AceCrackshot]

I don't think the FAA "skated":

39. The current Federal Aviation Administration surveillance standards for oversight at air carriers undergoing rapid growth and increased complexity of operations do not guarantee that any challenges encountered by the carriers as a result of these changes will be appropriately mitigated.

41. The viability of flight operational quality assurance programs depends on the confidentiality of the data, which would currently not be guaranteed if operators were required to implement these programs and required to share the data with the Federal Aviation Administration.

Granted, the FAA didn't carry the burden of responsibility in the NTSB's final report (the Captain did), but how much should the FAA bear in this accident?

The POI at Colgan allowed Colgan's absolutely shodden recordkeeping, training and manual drafting (or, more properly, lack thereof) to occur.

The POI allowed Colgan to integrate a 76 seat, glass cockpit aircraft into a fleet without ANY experience with FMS, Glass or an aircraft of this size.

He allowed this integration to occur without a concrete plan for crewing, training or operating this aircraft.

The POI didn't kill the people in Buffalo, but in my opinion, he handed the company and crew a loaded gun.

Edited: for clarity.

 

[Tarzan]

The POI didn't kill the people in Buffalo, but in my opinion, he handed the company and crew a loaded gun.

Edited: for clarity.

I disagree completely. The current seniority system we've burdened ourselves with lends itself to keeping individuals who have no business flying airplanes, flying airplanes. The POI can be blamed but it was the guy in the left seat that PULLED BACK ON THE YOKE when training dictates (from day one as a private pilot) lowering the nose and fire walling the thrust levers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I disagree completely. The current seniority system we've burdened ourselves with lends itself to keeping individuals who have no business flying airplanes, flying airplanes. The POI can be blamed but it was the guy in the left seat that PULLED BACK ON THE YOKE when training dictates (from day one as a private pilot) lowering the nose and fire walling the thrust levers.

BINGO....WE created a two tiered "master/apprentice" system with the lowest experienced pilots flying in the toughest conditions....Brilliant idea..

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

The POI allowed Colgan to integrate a 76 seat, glass cockpit aircraft into a fleet without ANY experience with FMS, Glass or an aircraft of this size.

SF-340 Cockpit has 5-tubes o fun.

 

[WayBack]

SF-340 Cockpit has 5-tubes o fun.

Thanks for this little piece of information.
What's next for show and tell?

 

[Kaman]

In the final analysis, Colgan Air albeit Pinnacle Air Holdings failed in their corporate duty to deliver a safe, reliable and well-trained crew into the cockpit of the airplane. Not that there isn't pilots (the vast majority) that meet that criteria. However, the "Q" was rushed into service without using the best resources available. PNCL could have and should have went out and "headhunted" some "Q-400" subject matter experts and really front-loaded the program with approved manuals, state-of-the-art training aids/methods. Quite simply, they did it on the cheap. And, as terrible as I honestly feel to say this. The flying public got exactly what they paid for.

 

[WayBack]

In the final analysis, Colgan Air albeit Pinnacle Air Holdings failed in their corporate duty to deliver a safe, reliable and well-trained crew into the cockpit of the airplane. Not that there isn't pilots (the vast majority) that meet that criteria. However, the "Q" was rushed into service without using the best resources available. PNCL could have and should have went out and "headhunted" some "Q-400" subject matter experts and really front-loaded the program with approved manuals, state-of-the-art training aids/methods. Quite simply, they did it on the cheap. And, as terrible as I honestly feel to say this. The flying public got exactly what they paid for.

Stop it right there, we will have none of this here.
We want rumors and facts passed down from senior training instructors, how Mesa Sucks and it also has to contain one item praising the work of ALPA.

 

[CFI2766]

In the final analysis, Colgan Air albeit Pinnacle Air Holdings failed in their corporate duty to deliver a safe, reliable and well-trained crew into the cockpit of the airplane. Not that there isn't pilots (the vast majority) that meet that criteria. However, the "Q" was rushed into service without using the best resources available. PNCL could have and should have went out and "headhunted" some "Q-400" subject matter experts and really front-loaded the program with approved manuals, state-of-the-art training aids/methods. Quite simply, they did it on the cheap. And, as terrible as I honestly feel to say this. The flying public got exactly what they paid for.

Counter point: the corporate fiduciary duty was to the shareholders of the company. I'm sure there are boldy printed mission statements, objectives, principles, and appropriate "go-team" corporate buzz words. What the management team of Colgan, Pinnacle, and Continental are ultimately graded on, however, is the bottom line of the financial statments for the time that they were in the corner offices.

I agree with you: the flying public got what they paid for.

Somewhere, there needs to be a better balance between the fiduciary needs of the people running the airline and the people who are customers and stakeholders of that airline.


Almost forgot: Mesa sucks, my first born child will be named 'ALPA', and I heard that DALPA was going to cave up to 100 seaters. There, more credible now?

 

[CFI2766]

BINGO....WE created a two tiered "master/apprentice" system with the lowest experienced pilots flying in the toughest conditions....Brilliant idea..

Not the best plan.

Alternatives?