Colgan 3407 Findings

[ImbracableCrunk]

Thanks for this little piece of information.
What's next for show and tell?

That would be to inform the quoted poster that Colgan's fleet did indeed include EFIS planes.

Flight/Info-type stuff. Not ALPA/Rant-type stuff. I see why you didn't get it.

 

[s3jetman]

Im not a glass guy, so I am asking this question from an analog perspective. I have been flying steam gauges on the 1900 for a while and did some flying in a crj sim just for experience , I found that I did not recognize the airspeed indications as quickly as I do on analog gauge. I know the captain had quite a few hours on the steam gauges and little time in glass. It is no excuse but was wondering how much contribution the lack of glass time could of played in airspeed recognition in this situation. Should there be a time requirement when someone upgrades or is introduced to glass, when switching from analog?

 

[clickclickboom]

I always found any transition between glass and steam to be near seamless.

I get in the jet with steam and fly it.. You know there is not a nd or mfd thats it. Tune in the radial, intercept and fly the departure.

If i am in the bus I follow the green line and watch the magic happen

As for flying glass,, There is not real scan you are looking at one screen with everything contained in one place. Trend arrows and speed tapes are a beautiful thing.

 

[buscap]

BINGO....WE created a two tiered "master/apprentice" system with the lowest experienced pilots flying in the toughest conditions....Brilliant idea..

Dude!!

This system was never a "plan" nor is there such a thing as a "WE" who created it. It's a long evolutionary process, getting where we are with respect to seniority.

The seniority system, like all the alternatives, is a strange triple edged sword, but even most nonunion carriers vehemently embrace it.

Train engineers, truckers, doctors; where does the list stop?

But as it relates to 3407, seniority is irrelevant. And while ALPA does have a track record of defending the indefensible, they were not even on the property when Captain Yank-it-Hard had his training issues.

His defense was provided by a weak-butted training department and company who did not want to lose their previous investments in him.

When Colgan picked up the Q, there was no Union stopping them from hiring the talent needed to properly start and run the program.

 

[WayBack]

That would be to inform the quoted poster that Colgan's fleet did indeed include EFIS planes.

Flight/Info-type stuff. Not ALPA/Rant-type stuff. I see why you didn't get it.

Ok, now I get it. I was clueless until you mentioned ALPA.
Thanks!

 

[kmox29]

The POI at Colgan allowed Colgan's absolutely shodden recordkeeping, training and manual drafting (or, more properly, lack thereof) to occur.

The POI allowed Colgan to integrate a 76 seat, glass cockpit aircraft into a fleet without ANY experience with FMS, Glass or an aircraft of this size.

He allowed this integration to occur without a concrete plan for crewing, training or operating this aircraft.

The POI didn't kill the people in Buffalo, but in my opinion, he handed the company and crew a loaded gun.

Edited: for clarity.

I completely disagree. You (and I) do not know all the details of the Colgan operation in relation to the FAA. I believe that given the chance, the NTSB loves hammering the FAA on just about anything and that if they found serious flaws as in your above mentioned allegations, they would have more than gladly pointed them out.

Remember, the FAA doesn't write company manuals or develop training programs, and in reality, they only have to "approve" a few. With reference to this accident, I don't think the Captain's inappropriate stall response and the FO's raising of the flaps were contributable to the FAA, or POI.

Can the FAA do better with updated regulations? In my opinion, absolutely. But you have to be careful with asking for more regulation, it can be a double-edged sword.

This accident was caused by inattention to flying the airplane. Sterile cockpit regulations were violated which led to the inattention. Furthermore, Colgan's training does not call for full aft elevator in stall recovery, nor does it call for raising the flaps. Where is the POI at fault in any of that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Curious if Colgan is still a good deal for 9E

 

[Nevets]

While I agree with you that they didn't belong in the cockpit, ALPA should have made sure these two were never in the cockpit.
Since ALPA is all about safety, they should have made sure they weren't hired. Now I know ALPA wasn't on the property at the time, but if ALPA is as serious about making the whole aviation industry safer for everyone, well they should have stepped in and made sure Colgan was hiring competent pilots.
Instead ALPA is more worried about the collection of dues, and having unsafe pilots in the cockpit would bankrupt the Union.

ALPA wasn't there when they were hired or trained. ALPA was voted in less than two months before this accident. Not that ALPA has control of who a company hires or how they are trained.

Don't get me wrong, I complete agree and understand what you're saying.
But in recent threads, there have been some ALPA chest thumpers who think that ALPA's sole purpose is safety and that they have made the whole aviation community safer (91,135,121) single handedly.
They also say ALPA has the power to do anything they want. They can make anything happen, they get what they want because they're so powerful.

So, what I am saying is more in a response to what those guys think of ALPA.

I explained it before in another post on this thread, but I'll say it again.
There have ALPA chest thumpers on here, saying that ALPA's sole mission is safety, and that all of the aviation industry (General and Airline Aviation) have benefited from ALPA creating everything that has made the industry safer. No one else had there hand in it, just ALPA. They fixed it all with the wave of a wand.
So if ALPA is about making every thing safer, even for the non-ALPA pilots/carriers, they should have been active in making sure Colgan's pilots are competent safe pilots. I know ALPA doesn't hire, but maybe this is a arena they should take over, since they want safer pilots.
They also failed to inform Colgan's training department, that is was substandard.

ALPA's sole purpose is not just safety. But they have made piloting safer by HELPING push safety initiatives, processes, and technologies. And I beleive its you who seems to think that ALPA has the power to do anything and hence blame ALPA when they can't make it so that everyone is paid hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Somewhere, there needs to be a better balance between the fiduciary needs of the people running the airline and the people who are customers and stakeholders of that airline.

The FAA is supposed to create that "balance" evenly among all operators.

 

[CFI2766]

The FAA is supposed to create that "balance" evenly among all operators.[/QUOTE]


Agreed. I think we all know, as pilots in the regional world, that the FAA is not making that balance happen.

 

[WayBack]

The FAA is supposed to create that "balance" evenly among all operators.

Agreed. I think we all know, as pilots in the regional world, that the FAA is not making that balance happen.[/QUOTE]

It's not even happening at the majors. Look at the headlines today how the FAA is going to fine AA because some other agency is going to fine them (the FAA) for "over looking" some mx issues, regarding the wire harness.