HA pilots reach TA with management

[MINIME]

The SWA rates don't fit with the overall industry pattern, because SWA productivity is much higher than every other carrier, plus some other contractual items aren't included, such as a DC pension. Alaska and Hawaiian are much more indicative of where the overall rates are going in the industry, because most airlines aren't going to be able to match SWA productivity.



Personally, I think we'll be much better off on our own. I think AirTran will see massive growth over the next 10-20 years, and I just don't see the same for SWA. When we get a new contract that fits with the overall industry pattern, combined with the higher growth rate that I think we'll see, I think our pilots will be much better off than getting integrated with SWA, even if the integration is "fair."

Fair enough.

Well, the proposed rates that HAL is rumored to get should put them higher than ALK right? In fact, it puts them almost at the tail of LUV. So are you going for those new rates atleast?

Also, if LUV comes knocking, the scenerio of "Bird in hand versus potential Bird in hand" may come into play. Your estimation is based on theory not actual proposals of growth I imagine. Even if you do grow, how much will your pilots benefit from it. Will they get a contract that they feel satisfied with?

Reason I say this is because most of your pilots, especially your FOs would get as much as an 80% immidiate raise with LUV. What could AAI do to surpass that? Especially with that style of management.

I realize that my questions are mostly hypothetical. But given the history of your company's management, I couldn't imagine most of your pilots not wanting to team up with LUV. Again, especially your First Officers since their compensation is in severe need of adjustment.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, the proposed rates that HAL is rumored to get should put them higher than ALK right? In fact, it puts them almost at the tail of LUV. So are you going for those new rates atleast?

I believe the HAL rates are going to be very close to the ALA rates on the narrow-bodies.

Will they get a contract that they feel satisfied with?

I think so.

 

[FlickerFade]

Holy thread hijack!!

HA for its size is about the most profitable airline in the US. About $100M when all is said and done for 2009.

Our history, route structure, fleet composition, and bargaining make HA unique. There's also the DC/DB component.

Trying to compare HA with AAI is a stretch, but it's very funny in that you don't have a clue what's in the TA.

 

[Lear70]

Trying to compare HA with AAI is a stretch, but it's very funny in that you don't have a clue what's in the TA.

I find it humorous that you would think comparing HA and AAI is a stretch. SNB flying is SNB flying. It's not like you're flying 747's internationally...

And you'd be surprised what some of the people on this board are privy to... I personally haven't seen a single paragraph of the new T.A., but I'd be surprised if the MEC leadership of every ALPA carrier that flies SNB aircraft hasn't been given a brief on the highlights by now.

Good luck to you. Hope it's a great Agreement.

 

[FlickerFade]

I find it humorous that you would think comparing HA and AAI is a stretch. SNB flying is SNB flying. It's not like you're flying 747's internationally...

And you'd be surprised what some of the people on this board are privy to... I personally haven't seen a single paragraph of the new T.A., but I'd be surprised if the MEC leadership of every ALPA carrier that flies SNB aircraft hasn't been given a brief on the highlights by now.

Good luck to you. Hope it's a great Agreement.

What I found humorous were three things:
- That you were commenting on what you'd accept for a pay rate increase. As if it's that simple and translates between companies.
- That the thread turned into an Airtran pay/contract discussion
- That no matter what your inside info. Outside of a pay rate, there is no way you understand the scope and specifics of the Hawaiian TA.

I hope that it's a good agreement. If there weren't too many "productivity" increases, the pay rates and retirement (I've heard an increase to 19.5% from 17%) is about what we were asking for.

Good luck to everybody.

 

[Lear70]

What I found humorous were three things:
- That you were commenting on what you'd accept for a pay rate increase. As if it's that simple and translates between companies.

Yes, the basics of not accepting LESS than COLA absolutely DOES translate between companies. It's frustrating how few pilots understand basic economic concepts such as inflation and how it applies to their pay rates.

I don't care WHERE you work, Cost Of Living goes up. Every year. Never have understood ANY Pilot group who signs for less than COLA from when the contract was amendable. When they do, they take a pay CUT from what they were making, in terms of spending power, the day before their contract was amendable.

That's basic Finance 101 that I was referring to, not HA specifically.

- That the thread turned into an Airtran pay/contract discussion

I was using it as a basis for comparison in general terms, of how many years we've been amendable and what I'd take as a minimum rate. PCL came and discussed how different carrier's rates set the standard for pattern bargaining and how HA rates would likely be pretty close to in-line for what is becoming the new industry standard for SNB.

I don't see how it turned into an Airtran Pay/contract discussion. You want to see one of those? Go to the SWA/AAI merger rumor thread. THAT'S a pay/contract discussion.

I've been on this board a long time. I know many, many people on it. Some of the people on this board are involved enough in the ALPA structure to know EXACTLY what's in your T.A. Yes, even before you do, unless you're on the HA MEC. Just the way of life... heck, I talked to a Chief Pilot the other day who is on here and noticed I'd become a mod. Lots of people read these boards and comment under an anonymous user name. You'd be surprised...

Welcome to FI.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, the basics of not accepting LESS than COLA absolutely DOES translate between companies. It's frustrating how few pilots understand basic economic concepts such as inflation and how it applies to their pay rates.

I don't care WHERE you work, Cost Of Living goes up. Every year. Never have understood ANY Pilot group who signs for less than COLA from when the contract was amendable. When they do, they take a pay CUT from what they were making, in terms of spending power, the day before their contract was amendable.

That's basic Finance 101 that I was referring to, not HA specifically.

I think it's important to remember that COLA can vary based on income strata. For instance, the CPI is a perfect number to use for regional pilots, because the average RJ pilot will make around $40k per year and likely doesn't live in the highest-income areas such as Manhattan. However, a pilot at a major airline makes a higher average income (about $100k at AAI, for example), which throws off the CPI number somewhat. Depending on what year, COLA for high-income individuals can be either higher or lower than the CPI, and sometimes significantly so. Typically, though, COLA is quite a bit lower for those with higher incomes than is indicated by the CPI.

In other words, the CPI can exaggerate what is needed for COLA for most pilots at major airlines. The CPI exaggerates inflation for us. By contrast, the CPI actually underestimates the impact on low-income individuals like first-year regional pilots who make less than $20k per year.

 

[dicko]

Have you looked at their current pay rates lately? A 20% raise would put them right in line with the new pattern that has been established by Alaska and JetBlue. The new pattern is right around $180/hr for SNB rates, and WB rates in the $210/hr range by end of contract. You can reasonably demand an extra few percent in the name of pattern bargaining (jacking up the house one corner at a time), but you can't expect the NMB to allow a demand for 36% raises when 20% would put you in range of the established bargaining pattern.

When i started reading this thread I thought to myself; " I wonder when PCL will get here to start managing our expectations". Here you are.

AirTran Management is very lucky to have somebody with your standards negotiating our next contract.

To the HA pilots. Congrats. I hope its a good one.

 

[Hansoma]

Hey, here's an idea: How about if everybody who DOESN'T work for Hawaiian refrain from posting until we actually SEE the TA....

 

[FlickerFade]

Hey, here's an idea: How about if everybody who DOESN'T work for Hawaiian refrain from posting until we actually SEE the TA....

That was kind of my point.

If those elder statesmen here care to divulge some of their super insider info., those of us what work there would like to know details.

 

[Lear70]

K... fair enough. :beer:

Good luck to ya'. Seriously.

 

[HAL]

That was kind of my point.

If those elder statesmen here care to divulge some of their super insider info., those of us what work there would like to know details.

I heard a bunch of numbers, rumors, and concepts thrown around between flights while mid-Pacific this evening, but they were all different. The point is that we just don't know what's in the TA yet, and we won't until they put out the new contract language. All the guys at HA (especially the ones already positioning themselves to vote no) need to stand down and wait. Read the TA. Assess the changes. THEN decide whether it's a thumbs up or thumbs down. To do otherwise is even more pointless than arguing on FI.

HAL

 

[Dan Roman]

Well said Hal.
Lear 70, Somehow this started morphing into an AirTran vs. Hawaiian debate. I don't think it was meant to. We all have our unique set of circumstances and believe me, Hawaiians last 20 years could be a book (HAL?). I think what AirTran and Hawaiian do have in common is management of a profitable airline unwilling to give labor it's due. I would think our MEC's are sharing info as ALK's did with our's.
Essentially, what we had was a long history of mostly concessions after Hawaiian was the top paying DC-9 operation in the country prior to de-regulation. We are now one of the financially strongest airlines in the U.S (Number 1 in the U.S. and Number 11 in the world according to Aviation Week and Space Technology). Yet during these negotiations management took the stand of ZERO cost increase on the pilot contract I.E. any raises would have to be offset by productivity givebacks. At the same time, management awarded themselves bonus's of up to 43%.
We have fought back and I am privy to just enough info to at least know we did much better than that with this TA. As a matter of fact I'm a little mystified by your comment to flickerfade that "your not exactly an International 747 operation". I don't think you meant that the way it sounded, but for the record, we are mostly a Trans Pacific operation with a much smaller percentage of our flying being inter-island. Besides carrying the largest percentage of West to Hawaii traffic (it varies between us and UAL), we are in fact a wide body international airline. Sydney, Manila, Pago Pago and Tahiti. I know I know big deal, but this contract was geared towards protecting us during a large international expansion. Next year we will see a new Asian city destination and the first of our A 330's coming on line. We have at least 15 expected and they are not all 767 replacements, we will be keeping many of the 767's for flying to the west coast. I do know that this contract does get our A330 pay on par with Delta and the 767 pay is equal to that (no differential). I believe our retirement is enhanced and we already actually do have a good retirement.
Anyway, the point is, we are very different and also have pretty much the same battle with many similarities. We benefited a lot from the fight Alaska fought prior to us and from Delta's lead. We are all in this together and good luck to you guys. It can seem like a long ways from the light at the end of the tunnel when you are in it, but it can be done. You guys are fighting the same battle we just did, you can win if you stay united.

 

[dh82dvr]

PCL, I dream of 100k. Then I wake up to my nightmare of not 100k.
:uzi:

 

[FlickerFade]

I don't know what the point is anymore. Congress is about to increase all of our health care care costs. The net pay raise will be less than zero.

Then there's inflation.