HA pilots reach TA with management

[HAL]

After nearly 3 years of negotiations, a TA is in hand. I'll be interested to see what it contains!

HAL

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/a...s+reaches+tentative+contract+deal+with+pilots

 

[xanderman]

As will I. I hope it drives some additional hiring so I can get out of the pool and dry off!!!!!

 

[HAL]

Latest rumor is another bid for about 30 coming out early next year. Don't know any more details than that though.

HAL

 

[xanderman]

Read a rumor on another site that says pay was increased something on the order of 20%! I find this hard to believe in this economic environment. Any HA pilots care to put that one to rest? What other provisions are worthy of water cooler talk?

 

[FlickerFade]

Read a rumor on another site that says pay was increased something on the order of 20%! I find this hard to believe in this economic environment. Any HA pilots care to put that one to rest? What other provisions are worthy of water cooler talk?

Over the life of the 5 year contract, that's exactly what was expected.

It will be the first pay increases in 10 years at Hawaiian.

 

[Lear70]

That's not surprising:

If it IS correct at 20% (I don't have any insider info) and let's just say there's 6% raises on Date of Signing and 3.5% a year for 4 more years, total 5 year agreement, 20% total, I'd say that's not exactly stellar, not even COLA from when the CBA was amendable. I wouldn't vote for that at AAI.

You need 3% for every year you didn't get a contract raise while you were negotiating and 3% COLA on top of that every year after D.O.S. or you're losing money every year you stay at the same wage, especially the topped-out guys at year 10 or 12 or wherever your scale caps at.

Better be great work rule improvements and/or retirement to boost that number. 10 years without COLA adjustments to wages? That's 36% or thereabouts (when compounded yearly) just to account for inflation!

 

[scoreboardII]

Is the new standard for negotiations a minimum length of 3 plus years?

 

[PCL_128]

That's not surprising:

If it IS correct at 20% (I don't have any insider info) and let's just say there's 6% raises on Date of Signing and 3.5% a year for 4 more years, total 5 year agreement, 20% total, I'd say that's not exactly stellar, not even COLA from when the CBA was amendable. I wouldn't vote for that at AAI.

You need 3% for every year you didn't get a contract raise while you were negotiating and 3% COLA on top of that every year after D.O.S. or you're losing money every year you stay at the same wage, especially the topped-out guys at year 10 or 12 or wherever your scale caps at.

Better be great work rule improvements and/or retirement to boost that number. 10 years without COLA adjustments to wages? That's 36% or thereabouts (when compounded yearly) just to account for inflation!

Have you looked at their current pay rates lately? A 20% raise would put them right in line with the new pattern that has been established by Alaska and JetBlue. The new pattern is right around $180/hr for SNB rates, and WB rates in the $210/hr range by end of contract. You can reasonably demand an extra few percent in the name of pattern bargaining (jacking up the house one corner at a time), but you can't expect the NMB to allow a demand for 36% raises when 20% would put you in range of the established bargaining pattern.

 

[xanderman]

I am sorry. I was not thinking... I saw the new (rumored) rates and thought they were reflecting the new (immediate) rates. I forgot these things get spread out... My bad.

 

[Lear70]

Have you looked at their current pay rates lately? A 20% raise would put them right in line with the new pattern that has been established by Alaska and JetBlue. The new pattern is right around $180/hr for SNB rates, and WB rates in the $210/hr range by end of contract. You can reasonably demand an extra few percent in the name of pattern bargaining (jacking up the house one corner at a time), but you can't expect the NMB to allow a demand for 36% raises when 20% would put you in range of the established bargaining pattern.

Well, part of the problem is that I can't see their pay rates on APC to know where they were starting from or the new rates that are negotiated.

I agree, in general terms, that negotiating industry leading pay scales from a company that isn't making industry leading profits (HAL), would be difficult, but I have to say, in principle, with a profitable company, I would never agree to anything less than COLA rates unless the rate/work rule combination served to increase the wages in the same total amount equal to COLA or better.

I don't really give a rat's WHAT the rest of the industry is doing IF my company was profitable at the pay rates before they became amendable and is still profitable 3, 5, 7, 10 years later and COLA just happens to put those raises above the industry average because the company stalled for so many years. If my company is profitable, they can afford to pay COLA every year at the bare minimum.

The other thing I'm expecting to see from just about everyone bargaining these days with companies that drag things out for half a decade or longer is an AUTOMATIC COLA adjustment every year AFTER the contract becomes amendable. Remove the incentive for the company to stall and we'd start having some serious negotiating leverage.

I remember a time when you thought the same way, amigo...

 

[thor2j]

Have you looked at their current pay rates lately? A 20% raise would put them right in line with the new pattern that has been established by Alaska and JetBlue. The new pattern is right around $180/hr for SNB rates, and WB rates in the $210/hr range by end of contract. You can reasonably demand an extra few percent in the name of pattern bargaining (jacking up the house one corner at a time), but you can't expect the NMB to allow a demand for 36% raises when 20% would put you in range of the established bargaining pattern.

Maybe I missed something but JB max pay is $159/hr and Alaska's is $172.

 

[jmt]

As will I. I hope it drives some additional hiring so I can get out of the pool and dry off!!!!!

I am hoping to get out of the pool too! But not having a current flying job won't help me though...

 

[PCL_128]

I don't really give a rat's WHAT the rest of the industry is doing IF my company was profitable at the pay rates before they became amendable and is still profitable 3, 5, 7, 10 years later and COLA just happens to put those raises above the industry average because the company stalled for so many years. If my company is profitable, they can afford to pay COLA every year at the bare minimum.

I agree that they can afford it. Unfortunately, the NMB looks at industry patterns. This is the same reason why UPS pilots still make a hell of a lot less today than DAL pilots made in 2001. The company could afford just about anything ($1 billion in quarterly profits when the TA came in '06), but the NMB wasn't going to release anyone that was demanding pre-9/11 rates, even at a profitable cargo carrier. We only have as much leverage as the RLA provides.

The other thing I'm expecting to see from just about everyone bargaining these days with companies that drag things out for half a decade or longer is an AUTOMATIC COLA adjustment every year AFTER the contract becomes amendable. Remove the incentive for the company to stall and we'd start having some serious negotiating leverage.

There are pros and cons to this strategy. The pros are obvious, the cons less so. The problem is that COLA adjustments into perpetuity eliminate the sense of urgency on both sides of the bargaining table. The pilots may have lots of smaller items that they want to fix, but they aren't going to get too mad about it as long as their 3% raise keeps coming. The company can go to the investors and banks and tell them that they have a guaranteed pay structure that is increasing at only 3% per year, and they have no risk of a work stoppage because the pilots aren't demanding rapid resolution to contract talks.

I tend to think a middle-of-the-road approach is a better move. Provide a small guaranteed pay raise (1.5%), which mitigates the amount of retro pay that has to be negotiated, but is still low enough to motivate pilots to get a new contract. I'm generally opposed to full COLA past the amendable date unless I think pattern bargaining in the years ahead isn't looking favorable. Right now, the pattern is very positive, and probably will be for the next decade.

Maybe I missed something but JB max pay is $159/hr and Alaska's is $172.

Alaska's reaches $180 after three years (end of the contract duration). JetBlue's rate has to be blended, since they get 150% for all flying over 78 hours per month. Depending on how much a pilot flies, his effective rate can be either lower or higher than $180/hr. Average is probably in the $173/hr range.

 

[MINIME]

PCL,

How close do you think you'll get to SWA rates? That should be your aim, should it not?
If not so close, why do you not support a reasonable merger with SWA? The law provides for one if needed.
What have you got to lose if it's done right for your pilots?

Not trying to attack, just wondering why anyone would not want to be a part of a company that is superior in treating their employees. Keep fighting the good fight...

 

[PCL_128]

How close do you think you'll get to SWA rates? That should be your aim, should it not?

The SWA rates don't fit with the overall industry pattern, because SWA productivity is much higher than every other carrier, plus some other contractual items aren't included, such as a DC pension. Alaska and Hawaiian are much more indicative of where the overall rates are going in the industry, because most airlines aren't going to be able to match SWA productivity.

If not so close, why do you not support a reasonable merger with SWA? The law provides for one if needed.
What have you got to lose if it's done right for your pilots?

Personally, I think we'll be much better off on our own. I think AirTran will see massive growth over the next 10-20 years, and I just don't see the same for SWA. When we get a new contract that fits with the overall industry pattern, combined with the higher growth rate that I think we'll see, I think our pilots will be much better off than getting integrated with SWA, even if the integration is "fair."

 

[MINIME]

The SWA rates don't fit with the overall industry pattern, because SWA productivity is much higher than every other carrier, plus some other contractual items aren't included, such as a DC pension. Alaska and Hawaiian are much more indicative of where the overall rates are going in the industry, because most airlines aren't going to be able to match SWA productivity.



Personally, I think we'll be much better off on our own. I think AirTran will see massive growth over the next 10-20 years, and I just don't see the same for SWA. When we get a new contract that fits with the overall industry pattern, combined with the higher growth rate that I think we'll see, I think our pilots will be much better off than getting integrated with SWA, even if the integration is "fair."

Fair enough.

Well, the proposed rates that HAL is rumored to get should put them higher than ALK right? In fact, it puts them almost at the tail of LUV. So are you going for those new rates atleast?

Also, if LUV comes knocking, the scenerio of "Bird in hand versus potential Bird in hand" may come into play. Your estimation is based on theory not actual proposals of growth I imagine. Even if you do grow, how much will your pilots benefit from it. Will they get a contract that they feel satisfied with?

Reason I say this is because most of your pilots, especially your FOs would get as much as an 80% immidiate raise with LUV. What could AAI do to surpass that? Especially with that style of management.

I realize that my questions are mostly hypothetical. But given the history of your company's management, I couldn't imagine most of your pilots not wanting to team up with LUV. Again, especially your First Officers since their compensation is in severe need of adjustment.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, the proposed rates that HAL is rumored to get should put them higher than ALK right? In fact, it puts them almost at the tail of LUV. So are you going for those new rates atleast?

I believe the HAL rates are going to be very close to the ALA rates on the narrow-bodies.

Will they get a contract that they feel satisfied with?

I think so.

 

[FlickerFade]

Holy thread hijack!!

HA for its size is about the most profitable airline in the US. About $100M when all is said and done for 2009.

Our history, route structure, fleet composition, and bargaining make HA unique. There's also the DC/DB component.

Trying to compare HA with AAI is a stretch, but it's very funny in that you don't have a clue what's in the TA.

 

[Lear70]

Trying to compare HA with AAI is a stretch, but it's very funny in that you don't have a clue what's in the TA.

I find it humorous that you would think comparing HA and AAI is a stretch. SNB flying is SNB flying. It's not like you're flying 747's internationally...

And you'd be surprised what some of the people on this board are privy to... I personally haven't seen a single paragraph of the new T.A., but I'd be surprised if the MEC leadership of every ALPA carrier that flies SNB aircraft hasn't been given a brief on the highlights by now.

Good luck to you. Hope it's a great Agreement.

 

[FlickerFade]

I find it humorous that you would think comparing HA and AAI is a stretch. SNB flying is SNB flying. It's not like you're flying 747's internationally...

And you'd be surprised what some of the people on this board are privy to... I personally haven't seen a single paragraph of the new T.A., but I'd be surprised if the MEC leadership of every ALPA carrier that flies SNB aircraft hasn't been given a brief on the highlights by now.

Good luck to you. Hope it's a great Agreement.

What I found humorous were three things:
- That you were commenting on what you'd accept for a pay rate increase. As if it's that simple and translates between companies.
- That the thread turned into an Airtran pay/contract discussion
- That no matter what your inside info. Outside of a pay rate, there is no way you understand the scope and specifics of the Hawaiian TA.

I hope that it's a good agreement. If there weren't too many "productivity" increases, the pay rates and retirement (I've heard an increase to 19.5% from 17%) is about what we were asking for.

Good luck to everybody.

 

[Lear70]

What I found humorous were three things:
- That you were commenting on what you'd accept for a pay rate increase. As if it's that simple and translates between companies.

Yes, the basics of not accepting LESS than COLA absolutely DOES translate between companies. It's frustrating how few pilots understand basic economic concepts such as inflation and how it applies to their pay rates.

I don't care WHERE you work, Cost Of Living goes up. Every year. Never have understood ANY Pilot group who signs for less than COLA from when the contract was amendable. When they do, they take a pay CUT from what they were making, in terms of spending power, the day before their contract was amendable.

That's basic Finance 101 that I was referring to, not HA specifically.

- That the thread turned into an Airtran pay/contract discussion

I was using it as a basis for comparison in general terms, of how many years we've been amendable and what I'd take as a minimum rate. PCL came and discussed how different carrier's rates set the standard for pattern bargaining and how HA rates would likely be pretty close to in-line for what is becoming the new industry standard for SNB.

I don't see how it turned into an Airtran Pay/contract discussion. You want to see one of those? Go to the SWA/AAI merger rumor thread. THAT'S a pay/contract discussion.

I've been on this board a long time. I know many, many people on it. Some of the people on this board are involved enough in the ALPA structure to know EXACTLY what's in your T.A. Yes, even before you do, unless you're on the HA MEC. Just the way of life... heck, I talked to a Chief Pilot the other day who is on here and noticed I'd become a mod. Lots of people read these boards and comment under an anonymous user name. You'd be surprised...

Welcome to FI.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, the basics of not accepting LESS than COLA absolutely DOES translate between companies. It's frustrating how few pilots understand basic economic concepts such as inflation and how it applies to their pay rates.

I don't care WHERE you work, Cost Of Living goes up. Every year. Never have understood ANY Pilot group who signs for less than COLA from when the contract was amendable. When they do, they take a pay CUT from what they were making, in terms of spending power, the day before their contract was amendable.

That's basic Finance 101 that I was referring to, not HA specifically.

I think it's important to remember that COLA can vary based on income strata. For instance, the CPI is a perfect number to use for regional pilots, because the average RJ pilot will make around $40k per year and likely doesn't live in the highest-income areas such as Manhattan. However, a pilot at a major airline makes a higher average income (about $100k at AAI, for example), which throws off the CPI number somewhat. Depending on what year, COLA for high-income individuals can be either higher or lower than the CPI, and sometimes significantly so. Typically, though, COLA is quite a bit lower for those with higher incomes than is indicated by the CPI.

In other words, the CPI can exaggerate what is needed for COLA for most pilots at major airlines. The CPI exaggerates inflation for us. By contrast, the CPI actually underestimates the impact on low-income individuals like first-year regional pilots who make less than $20k per year.

 

[dicko]

Have you looked at their current pay rates lately? A 20% raise would put them right in line with the new pattern that has been established by Alaska and JetBlue. The new pattern is right around $180/hr for SNB rates, and WB rates in the $210/hr range by end of contract. You can reasonably demand an extra few percent in the name of pattern bargaining (jacking up the house one corner at a time), but you can't expect the NMB to allow a demand for 36% raises when 20% would put you in range of the established bargaining pattern.

When i started reading this thread I thought to myself; " I wonder when PCL will get here to start managing our expectations". Here you are.

AirTran Management is very lucky to have somebody with your standards negotiating our next contract.

To the HA pilots. Congrats. I hope its a good one.

 

[Hansoma]

Hey, here's an idea: How about if everybody who DOESN'T work for Hawaiian refrain from posting until we actually SEE the TA....

 

[FlickerFade]

Hey, here's an idea: How about if everybody who DOESN'T work for Hawaiian refrain from posting until we actually SEE the TA....

That was kind of my point.

If those elder statesmen here care to divulge some of their super insider info., those of us what work there would like to know details.

 

[Lear70]

K... fair enough. :beer:

Good luck to ya'. Seriously.

 

[HAL]

That was kind of my point.

If those elder statesmen here care to divulge some of their super insider info., those of us what work there would like to know details.

I heard a bunch of numbers, rumors, and concepts thrown around between flights while mid-Pacific this evening, but they were all different. The point is that we just don't know what's in the TA yet, and we won't until they put out the new contract language. All the guys at HA (especially the ones already positioning themselves to vote no) need to stand down and wait. Read the TA. Assess the changes. THEN decide whether it's a thumbs up or thumbs down. To do otherwise is even more pointless than arguing on FI.

HAL

 

[Dan Roman]

Well said Hal.
Lear 70, Somehow this started morphing into an AirTran vs. Hawaiian debate. I don't think it was meant to. We all have our unique set of circumstances and believe me, Hawaiians last 20 years could be a book (HAL?). I think what AirTran and Hawaiian do have in common is management of a profitable airline unwilling to give labor it's due. I would think our MEC's are sharing info as ALK's did with our's.
Essentially, what we had was a long history of mostly concessions after Hawaiian was the top paying DC-9 operation in the country prior to de-regulation. We are now one of the financially strongest airlines in the U.S (Number 1 in the U.S. and Number 11 in the world according to Aviation Week and Space Technology). Yet during these negotiations management took the stand of ZERO cost increase on the pilot contract I.E. any raises would have to be offset by productivity givebacks. At the same time, management awarded themselves bonus's of up to 43%.
We have fought back and I am privy to just enough info to at least know we did much better than that with this TA. As a matter of fact I'm a little mystified by your comment to flickerfade that "your not exactly an International 747 operation". I don't think you meant that the way it sounded, but for the record, we are mostly a Trans Pacific operation with a much smaller percentage of our flying being inter-island. Besides carrying the largest percentage of West to Hawaii traffic (it varies between us and UAL), we are in fact a wide body international airline. Sydney, Manila, Pago Pago and Tahiti. I know I know big deal, but this contract was geared towards protecting us during a large international expansion. Next year we will see a new Asian city destination and the first of our A 330's coming on line. We have at least 15 expected and they are not all 767 replacements, we will be keeping many of the 767's for flying to the west coast. I do know that this contract does get our A330 pay on par with Delta and the 767 pay is equal to that (no differential). I believe our retirement is enhanced and we already actually do have a good retirement.
Anyway, the point is, we are very different and also have pretty much the same battle with many similarities. We benefited a lot from the fight Alaska fought prior to us and from Delta's lead. We are all in this together and good luck to you guys. It can seem like a long ways from the light at the end of the tunnel when you are in it, but it can be done. You guys are fighting the same battle we just did, you can win if you stay united.

 

[dh82dvr]

PCL, I dream of 100k. Then I wake up to my nightmare of not 100k.
:uzi:

 

[FlickerFade]

I don't know what the point is anymore. Congress is about to increase all of our health care care costs. The net pay raise will be less than zero.

Then there's inflation.