SWA TA Passes

[RedDogC130]

Unfortunately, and I know I'll get a hard time for saying this, but there are numerous places in the new contract that are written in a way that they will be subject to interpretation.

This has been my pet peeve with the old CBA. Lots of seemingly good stuff in there that has been interpreted by the company to our detriment, because they used 50 words where 10 would've been clearer.

The problem with the last 15 years is guys did not have the balls to put up a fight when they thought they were being wronged..."the company said no so I will let it go" that was the problem and that is how they got away with interpreting how they want, nobody put up a fight. If you think you have been wronged throw the flag and make them answer for it....I just did the other day regarding a move-up issue. I had the cheif pilot and head of scheds involved to provide me a good answer and was not taking payroll or regular scheds guys answer and letting it go till I was satisfied. They answered it to a way that made me happy and then I moved on. If you don't call them on it it will not get fixed.

 

[328dude]

On a lighter note though, this was my first trip under the new CBA. As luck would have it, added a 3.7 trip to the end of our day today and moved us up for tomorrow. Premium pay for the leg and entire day tomorrow. 3-day trip that was a ugly 19.50 is now a 29.15. I'm not to upset about being in ALB versus the beach in FLL.:beer:

 

[Flyingcat]

Thanks for the history lesson. Sounds like a good balance was struck. I as a consumer (when it does not make since to fly myself) am just shocked by the number of times I am not on the carrier with which I bought my ticket. I tend to prefer SWA because I know that I will be flying SWA and that SWA employees benefit. On Some "Major" carriers if I have to make a connection, I can literally fly four different airlines on a round trip flight and never fly the actual carrier I bought a ticket on. Meanwhile the flight on my Regional Jet is half way across the country.

This is why I prefer Southwest. Keep up the good work.

 

[firstthird]

On a lighter note though, this was my first trip under the new CBA. As luck would have it, added a 3.7 trip to the end of our day today and moved us up for tomorrow. Premium pay for the leg and entire day tomorrow. 3-day trip that was a ugly 19.50 is now a 29.15. I'm not to upset about being in ALB versus the beach in FLL

that is what I'm talking about. part of the 1.5-2 million a month that we needed to get in writing. well, section one was paramount but that 10 trips is nice. make sure you audit your own pay though, I'm sure that there will be plenty of 'mistakes' that seem to go the company's way until it gets automated.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Gary Kelly has learned an important lesson: If you want a contract passed, just downgrade 50 CA's on the eve of the election. Don't ignore the cause and effect relationship as it may permentantly alter the good labor relations WN has historically enjoyed.

 

[shootr]

The contract would have passed with the same basic percentages, with or without the downgrades announcement. It had no effect. We already knew it was going to easily pass.

 

[Tripower455]

The problem with the last 15 years is guys did not have the balls to put up a fight when they thought they were being wronged..."the company said no so I will let it go" that was the problem and that is how they got away with interpreting how they want, nobody put up a fight. If you think you have been wronged throw the flag and make them answer for it....I just did the other day regarding a move-up issue. I had the cheif pilot and head of scheds involved to provide me a good answer and was not taking payroll or regular scheds guys answer and letting it go till I was satisfied. They answered it to a way that made me happy and then I moved on. If you don't call them on it it will not get fixed.

What was the answer from the CP and head of scheds? Did you get paid 1.5 for the move up that wasn't interpreted as a move up?

The problem is that the union has rarely put up a fight in these circumstances, and repeatedly allowed bad precedence to be set.

Once your collective bargaining agent has given something away, you, as an individual, will not get it back, as I suspect you've found out per your conversations with the CP and HOS.

 

[Tripower455]

On a lighter note though, this was my first trip under the new CBA. As luck would have it, added a 3.7 trip to the end of our day today and moved us up for tomorrow. Premium pay for the leg and entire day tomorrow. 3-day trip that was a ugly 19.50 is now a 29.15. I'm not to upset about being in ALB versus the beach in FLL.:beer:

Awesome. It's about time.

 

[Whataburger]

Gary Kelly has learned an important lesson: If you want a contract passed, just downgrade 50 CA's on the eve of the election. Don't ignore the cause and effect relationship as it may permentantly alter the good labor relations WN has historically enjoyed.

We needed to downgrade. Reserve Capts not flying, FO reserves flying and VJAs. It costs a ton of money to let Capts not fly. It was time. Hopefully won't last long. Gary should not be "nice" at the expense of a healthy company.

 

[Slug]

Originally Posted by 328dude
On a lighter note though, this was my first trip under the new CBA. As luck would have it, added a 3.7 trip to the end of our day today and moved us up for tomorrow. Premium pay for the leg and entire day tomorrow. 3-day trip that was a ugly 19.50 is now a 29.15. I'm not to upset about being in ALB versus the beach in FLL.

Are you sure that has been implemented via the implementation schedule?

 

[crj410]

Let me offer a minor correction that had major consequences. The RJ carriers didn't take anything. It was foolishly given to them by mainline pilots. The fault of all this outsourcing lies squarely on the shoulders of mainline pilots, specifically DAL. Comair was the U.S. launch customer for the CRJ and the DAL MEC allowed it.

Couldn't agree more, as a former RJ pilot, The best thing that DAL should have done was to staple the comair guys, one pilot group, and dictate the RJ pay rate, along with quantity restrictions. Comair should have been integrated into Delta at the purchase of them, ie ( staple with fence )
instead ALPA and all their might And Stupidity let the cat out of the bag, and developed a Substandard Pay rate Pilot to effectively take over mainline flying. Then instead of a unification of a pilot union, where each pilot is just as important as the next, they endorse substandard RJ contracts instead, only to be outdone by each RJ carrier in a cut throat whipsaw. They simply just didn't take a enough intrest in preserving the pilot profession, only in the intrest of where the most dues came from ( mainline Pilot ). We as pilots should at least have a standard pay system for all Aircraft flown. This profession has gone down the tubes, and there are many pilots out there that care only about their paycheck and not as a long term investment. We need to stop this Bull &*^%.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>whatever<<

Tripower,

So as a candidate for union office, are you running as a rep who will represent the will of you constituency or as a guy who needs to protect your constituency from their own ignorance?

 

[328dude]

Are you sure that has been implemented via the implementation schedule?

So far its coded right and SWAPA is aware of this trip to see if they F code it with the premium.

Should know in a few days

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Why didn't the CMR MEC approach DALPA with a signed agreement for a staple? Why did they think ALPA merger policy should rule? I know, I know! It is because a few bitter lifers felt they were in a posistion of power and ruined it for the majority. My guess is over 90% of CMR pilots would have accepted a staple, but a few loud mouths felt they had some leverage.

Couldn't agree more, as a former RJ pilot, The best thing that DAL should have done was to staple the comair guys, one pilot group, and dictate the RJ pay rate, along with quantity restrictions. Comair should have been integrated into Delta at the purchase of them, ie ( staple with fence )
instead ALPA and all their might And Stupidity let the cat out of the bag, and developed a Substandard Pay rate Pilot to effectively take over mainline flying. Then instead of a unification of a pilot union, where each pilot is just as important as the next, they endorse substandard RJ contracts instead, only to be outdone by each RJ carrier in a cut throat whipsaw. They simply just didn't take a enough intrest in preserving the pilot profession, only in the intrest of where the most dues came from ( mainline Pilot ). We as pilots should at least have a standard pay system for all Aircraft flown. This profession has gone down the tubes, and there are many pilots out there that care only about their paycheck and not as a long term investment. We need to stop this Bull &*^%.

 

[Tripower455]

>>whatever<<

Tripower,

So as a candidate for union office, are you running as a rep who will represent the will of you constituency or as a guy who needs to protect your constituency from their own ignorance?

Both.

It's the union's job to represent it's pilots, and to protect the members from ignorance by educating them on the important issues.

 

[Dude]

I have an honest question for my WN brethren. Why do you think this one passed? What is different besides it being worth $43 million less than the TA we rejected? So if you had to put your finger on it, why did this one pass or what was done differently that made the group go from 49% to 87%?

 

[StopNTSing]

I have an honest question for my WN brethren. Why do you think this one passed? What is different besides it being worth $43 million less than the TA we rejected? So if you had to put your finger on it, why did this one pass or what was done differently that made the group go from 49% to 87%?

I believe it is because many of us TA1 no-voters, after seeing how our SWAPA execs and BoD interpreted the 1st vote, have sadly concluded we are at the point of diminishing returns. We simply cannot do any better with the current make-up of our union leadership, combined with the worst negotiating environment (economically speaking) most of us have seen in our careers. Unfortunate, but at some point you've got to acknowledge reality.:bawling:

 

[firstthird]

1 - better codeshare/scope language in section one
2 - lances/positions grandfathered. we'll have 222 on 1 jan 10 instead of 110
3 - able to kill new open time system if needed, albeit after 2 years
4 - negotiating fatigue
5 - TA2 is a known quantity, time/money to get to a TA3 was a big unknown

 

[Caveman]

Why didn't the CMR MEC approach DALPA with a signed agreement for a staple? Why did they think ALPA merger policy should rule? I know, I know! It is because a few bitter lifers felt they were in a posistion of power and ruined it for the majority. My guess is over 90% of CMR pilots would have accepted a staple, but a few loud mouths felt they had some leverage.

All true, but also way after the horse was out of the barn. The PID request was 10+ years after the first CRJ was on property. Both sides handled it poorly. The CMR knuckleheads who actually thought DOH was reasonable and the DAL knuckleheads who actually thought most CMR pilots wanted DOH.

I will say that even though DAL mainline should've kept RJs at mainline, we are all commenting on this with the advantage of hindsight. I can only assume that if the DAL pilots had had any idea of the ramifications of outsourcing the RJs they would never have even considered it.

 

[dashtrash]

Some Q400's have 78 seats (Horizon). I wonder if this could be mgt.'s loophole?

 

[737tanker]

Some Q400's have 78 seats (Horizon). I wonder if this could be mgt.'s loophole?

Based on what is in the TA I don't think there is a loophole for Q400s as it doesn't allow any domestic codeshare within the US. Here is what the TA says about codeshare.

"2. Domestic Codeshare
Southwest Airlines will not enter into a domestic Codeshare Agreement within the fifty (50)
United States without the agreement of the Association.
3. Codeshare for Regional Aircraft Flying
Southwest Airlines will not enter into any domestic or trans-border code share agreement
with a regional carrier or involving a regional aircraft except to provide inter-island service​

within the Hawaiian Islands or inter-island service within the Caribbean Islands."

 

[Chest Rockwell]

The letter/website info on the retro check amount. I am pretty sure that if that had been out with TA1, it would have passed 55-45 to 60/40ish. No big debate other than human tendency to not turn down $ when it is placed in front of you.

Passing by as large of a magin as it did, it is likely that any of the changes would have swung 48 or so that it would have required to pass.

 

[firstthird]

Passing by as large of a magin as it did, it is likely that any of the changes would have swung 48 or so that it would have required to pass.

I'm not so sure. much changed between May and October. The F9 deal really brought home the importance of section one improvements. The company's regressive bargaining pointed to mediation and 12-18 more months if TA2 had failed. I doubt that the retro amount would have mattered in May and might have made the No vote higher. more "selling" would have been alleged. It is all wind under the wings now. TA2 is the new CBA. time to enforce it and get to some of the stuff that we've been holding off on due to section 6.

 

[northstar]

Had a dispatcher on the jumpseat yesterday out of Midway. He said they feel defeated about the jumpseat amendment in our TA2. He said they are all going to start doing their full 5 hours of jumpseat time a year as company must rides without reducing time with takeoffs and landings.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why didn't the CMR MEC approach DALPA with a signed agreement for a staple? Why did they think ALPA merger policy should rule?

Why shouldn't ALPA merger policy apply between two ALPA carriers?

 

[Daddy]

I think you guys nailed it on the reasons TA2 passed. We did really well on everything but pay and no one expected to get anything more with our current leadership. I personally think they were right. I voted no so it would not pass by 87+% and weaken our future sec 6. Section 1 is solid, 401K is good, formalizing ELITT is big and the seniority grab that took place on TA1 was fixed. The lances were sort of grandfathered, but that situation is moot with continued contraction. I feel bad for the lances, but we as a group can only do so much when the airline is contracting. With everything we nailed down this time, I think the next round will be all about the pay as there is not much left to fix elsewhere. Even if the economy gets worse, I dont think there is much of a chance of us giving ANY concessions given the shoulder/torso cuts and the paltry pay raises.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Joe,

You know exactly why.(for some reason you need to argue this to justify your choice, or maybe not your choice to stay) One is, barring a ch7 a final stop in ones career, and the other is (for most) a stepping stone. The difference in pay, retirement, work rules, quality of life etc is far better at a mainline.(even after getting gangraped in bankruptcy court) You notice that nw/dl used alpa merger policy. We brought equal jobs. Do you think the cmr pilots would be better now had they taken(if offered) a staple? Some of those senior capts would be ER fo's, maybe even MD capts. and placed well above(due to relative sen) NW pilots hired before them. Instead they are at a subcontractor of small lift being jerked around and whippsawed(cvg,jfk,cvg, merger with ??)downgraded etc. So, do you think the rjdc minority made the right decision for the majority?

Why shouldn't ALPA merger policy apply between two ALPA carriers?

 

[ASADFW7]

The reason why it passed the second time was the got rid of the NC from the first pass through, and the arrogant attitude that they knew best. The second deal was less however the pilots had a greater imprint on the direction.

 

[firstthird]

Had a dispatcher on the jumpseat yesterday out of Midway. He said they feel defeated about the jumpseat amendment in our TA2. He said they are all going to start doing their full 5 hours of jumpseat time a year as company must rides without reducing time with takeoffs and landings.

huh? not following you. the only thing I heard about jumpseat was that CM tried to sneak something in at some point making pilots not first priority (management guys besides the big 5 or so could bump us). union said forget it. did something else change?

 

[northstar]

huh? not following you. the only thing I heard about jumpseat was that CM tried to sneak something in at some point making pilots not first priority (management guys besides the big 5 or so could bump us). union said forget it. did something else change?

Yeah man. I was just reading it. We can bump Dispatchers and Mechanics now for the jumpseat. It doesn't matter anymore if they show up first.